Opie

As a straight up raw talent, I take feds too, for what they were only with the Wings, I take Feds as inconsistent as he could be, in a Red Wing Uni Feds was better than Shanny. The sum total of all parts Shanny has better numbers and is in my opinion a better candidate for the Hall of Fame. Shanny was good before Det, after Det, and up until this past season was as dominant at 65 points as Feds, and even more so when feds was a 50 point - 7 player. As far as Dats and Feds I take Dats, more consistent and better team first attitude those are the only reasons. Flash they are equal, defensively close but Feds, stick handling Dats, playmaking Dats, Shot Feds by a lot. Not that Dats has a bad shot, but he doesn't have the Hardest shot competition in his future!!

That is my point, he scored 65,69,83 points coincidentally those would also be the best three years he has had since he left, he has not score +65 pts since leaving. 83 in that year wasn't even top 10, let alone dominating. He was +15 that year in case you wanted to say that he was dominating on the defensive end of things! For a comparison Yzerman was + 13, oh in only 16 games! And in that same year a youngster cutting his teeth in 69 games was a + 20, Datsyuk! That is interesting, things that make you go hmmmmmm! HE HAD 1 PHENOMENAL YEAR, AND 1 GREAT YEAR Then the rest he is barely in the same conversation as Shanny. If Feds had 600 goals and 1300 points I would say yes HOF without a doubt, as it is I have my doubts due to his less than stellar numbers.

My problem I guess is with the definition of dominant, he wasn't dominant the last few years in the D let alone after leaving Detroit. My definition of Dominant, AO (last season was dominant), Jagr, Gretzky, Howe you mean to tell me when Feds was in C-bus he was dominant, he still is? In ANA? And I didn't compare the careers just that he had that kind of year ONCE and ONLY ONCE! He had another year where he was great, but it wasn't 93-94.

Just in my first post, I still believe Shanny makes it ahead of him, however in my first post I typed "look at Yzerman and Shanny" when talking about first ballot sure fire HOFers and I meant Jagr then and only then. The rest of the discussion I meant Shanny!!! Sorry for confusing you, annoying day at work. Maybe based on competition but I think Sundin, Selanne (who have better numbers than Feds) have a better shot than Feds, again due to the fact he had 2 UNREAL years and nothing more. Good conversation egroen, always good to work the brain!!! See you all tomorrow!

How many 70 + gp 50pt seasons did Shanny have? I already stated that in my original post I typed Shanny and not Jagr, I am not saying Shanny is first ballot, just that he hit certain milestones that put him in the HOF before Feds who played UNREAL for all of 2 seasons. Feds 2 years that earn him HOF are 93-94 and 95-96 after that he hit 80 points exactly 1 time! So because he had his Jim Carrey Year © and another terrific one he is HOF. Shanny has 600 goals which has put everyone else except Dino and 1 other in the HOF, he has over 1300 points how many players with 1300 points are not in the HOF? BTW, I said 4-6 to prevent arguments, he has had 2 HOF years that is it. Shanny had an HOF career as evidence by his numbers that have put virtually everyone else with those numbers in the HOF. Yzerman had a great career that put him in, Howe had a great career that put him in, Lemieux had a great career that put him in, Feds had 2 great years, that IMO should not put him in, otherwise lets start calling it the hall of extremely great for a couple of years.

We won't ever see eye to eye on this. I think feds was HOF caliber for 4-6 years at most, the rest of his career was sub HOF, not s***ty not horrible, just not HOF imo. But I do have a problem arbitrarily assigning extra points for D, does Shanny get extra points for throwing Knuckles, wearing the A, Locker room presence, showing up night in and night out? The retire as wings comment- I am not sure how it works with Wings, the Sox thing was an analogy, but I wager the fact that the leaving was messy would make it tougher, and Feds is not Sawchuk, Howe or Abel.

No, we interpreted the question the same, but at some point in time I questioned someone else's rationale by saying I didn't think feds was HOF shoe in, which completely derailed the thread and had me thinking your post was something it wasn't!!

Coupke of thoughts The team deems other players that they could lose to Waivers (even though you don't) as more important than bringing up a potential hit or potential miss. OR... Maybe they are saving Kopecky for a time when they feel they really really need to bring some one up. You know like you don't just sacrifice the sacred cow because I am coming to dinner, you wait for someone with some form of importance! And with the team in a fight for the Pres trophy I highly doubt they see a need to do so now.

Very true, the cap was lower, he hadn't broken out yet, no awards on his mantel. All of these things make signing a long term contract tricky for both sides. If Dats signs and then s***s the bed the team is screwed. IF Dats signs and goes on to be one of the best in the league, he is under paid (still very well paid though) and the team has cap room. Lets say Z signs for 7.5 for 10, then turns around and next year absolutely s***s the bed, I mean fourth liner, scratched, 20 points s***s the bed, the team is screwed. On the other hand if Z signs for 7.5 10 years and goes on to win 2 MVPs another cup and another Conn Smyth, picks up a Selke or two, maybe a ross, then this deal is sweeter than candy apples!! It is a guessing game, one that the Wings seem to have perfected. For the most part.

Sure, was just asking. I said this last year, to me it says babs would rather have D ready on offense, I saw the two as virtual identicals, to tell the truth. Dats has more to his game on his stick, Z is a better leader and pure scorer. Other than that I saw the two as pretty evenly matched going into this season. This season has changed my opinion to lead toward Dats. I will also offer I have never watched as many wing's games as this season thanks to the streams that have popped up this year, so that may have influenced my opinion as well and maybe Z is having an off year. But to me when I watch the games this year it is apparent Dats is the better player. TO ME!

Umm Shanny has out performed Feds in all but 2 seasons of the last 8. BTW his +/- was better more often than not in this period as well. Last time Feds was a + he was a Wing, the last time Shanny was a + was 2 seasons ago his first as a Ranger. Shanny pts total last 8 years oldest to newest: 78 - 76 - 75 - 68 - 53 - 81 - 62 - 46 Feds 69 - 68 - 83* - 42 - 66* - 56 - 38 - 22 in fact you would have to go back to the 98-99 to find the 3rd season time Feds out produced Shanny. Slow lazy floater(your words not mine) that gives me 81 points 62 and 46(first year age showed IMO) the last 3 years is more valuable to me than a D forward who puts up 56-38-22, and he is not the defensive forward he was. Just like we can't pretend the 2 unreal years were the norm lets not pretend like he is still playing the game as hard and as intense (defensively) as when he was a selke winner. He puts up points sure but at best at a .5/game ratio. Which makes the few years he was great even better, he has been producing at a lower than PPG level for a while yet his PPG is barely below a PPG. Not saying he wasn't awesome in the winged wheel, not saying I would rather have had some one else, just saying he is not shoe in HOF in my opinion. If I had to do it all again I would take Feds in a heart beat all over again knowing the outcome knowing the drama, I still take him, he was a great Wing. His number won't get retired because of the way he left (not my opinion, my inference). Look no further than your sig to be reminded of what retired numbers mean to the wings. I know the Wings have never stated their criteria, but I assume it is similar to the Red Sox, and they state you must end your career as a Red Sox. So players like Fred Lynn, Dwight Evans, Manny Ramirex (Best right handed hitter in Franchise History) won't have their numbers retired, but they brought back C. Fisk in another role to get his number up there!

Glad I picked up Elliot in my fantasy league!!

No, but I wasn't the one giving Dats credit because he had Hossa on his wing. What it points to is that Dats is the better playmaker. Z and D basically swapped wingers, both continued to produce at the same level they were before hand. Franzen and Holmer are not Hossa type players. SO with them on his line and his takeaway stat and his turnover ratio are unwavering, what does that mean! Does that mean he is better than he was with a very good 2 way forward on his line? hmm, wait a minute if Hossa is a better Defensive player than Franzen and Franzen went from Z's line to D's line shouldn't that tell us who is the better player. Nope because you won't let it happen, you refuse to admit Dats is better. Because then you would have to admit to being wrong! Can I ask you a question: How do you know what the forward roles are? Did Bab tell you? Do you have a website that Babs said Z's first responsibility is D, like the rest of the team? However Dats gets to focus on O because he is not a defense first player, even though the rest of the team is? Your Modus Operandi is to spin in circles until people give up and then you get to think you won the argument, it is actually getting quite old and makes you appear to be not the solid poster I remember you once being. Now you just throw your opinion around like it is fact or stat, similar to a lot of people on here labeled trolls. Difference being your rep on here is better than that.

Fair enough, I still see Shanny as the "Favorite" in the race, for lack of better term, but like I said that is my opinion. I can see your point as it is well worded and you bring up tangibles, not well he is the best because I say so!!

So what about when Hossa went to Z's line and Dats still produced?

True but all of Feds feats were in a span of 5 years, Feds consistency will be the problem. He was UNREAL for 2 years, I have already acknowledge that. Shanny did it over time, and was consistently one of top wingers in the game. Feds left the Wings and became an better than Average player. Outside of the Wings how many times has Feds scored more than 70 points? Shanny? Without Shanny and Yzerman how many 70 point seasons does Feds have? But it is all opinion and I say he is not a shoe in.

OMG you lied!! Go to the Pens boards even posters on that board will tell you he said Pit was one of his choices and it came down to them and others, he chose the best fit. He never said the words I am staying, and if he did I beg of you find it for me and I will retract all of my posts on the subject and change the texts of all of them to read: Nogood is a god and knows everything about hockey while I know nothing!!! I don't want some blogger or reporter who "Thinks" he will stay, I want to see Hossa quoted as saying: "I am staying with Pit after this season" Not I could, or it would be nice, or I would like to, definitive quote where he says the above!

NO, you refuse to admit that Dats is the best defensive forward on the team. It is not that fun watching you squirm. You say that Selke's are a reason that Feds is one of the best ever, yet the Selke is meaningless when comparing D and Z. MAKE UP MY MIND!!!!! Datsyuk won the Selke this year, competing against his teammate, he beat his teammate for that award, thus he was the better defensive forward. Now using your rationale for Feds, but supplanting his name with Dats: Datsyuk is a better defensive forward because he has won more Selke's than Hank. EDIT: Dats always says Hank is the best at everything, I think due to the fact that Hank has been so helpful to him adjusting to the NHL and America. I think Dats respects the hell out of Hank and due to that respect said, Hank is the primary defender. But if you look at the stats, they are almost dead even in PK time this year. Dats leads the league in take aways you ignore it because of pk time (last year) your stance being that Z played more shorthanded minutes. What is your excuse reason this time?

And IF If's and but's were candies and nuts this post would be worth something. IF the wings don't sign Shanny Feds doesn't get a cup, If Bowman is not around Feds gets no cups and no 100 point seasons. See how easy yet meaningless that is!

Yeah but do Brad and Hank have the same priorities/personality? Maybe Richards thought that TB isn't exactly the Wings and don't exactly make the post season every season. And he thought might as well get paid., Or maybe Z is loyal to the org and wants to throw them a bone to help keep the team competitive, some one recently did that, for some team, who was that. Top UFA signed with a cup winner for about 3 mil less than other teams offers, damn I wish I could remember his name. Sofa, Marian Sofa I think or something like that.

No and he hit he 600 goal plateau, Feds has 100+ less goals than Dino, Dino is one of 2 players (I think) in the history of the league with 600 goals and not in the HOF. 600 goals and 1200 points are like 300 wins in baseball. They don't eliminate from the Hall, but in almost every case scoring them gets you in the hall. I think Dino, say what you want about the era he played in, deserves the Hall more than Sergei "I had 2 unreal seasons, and a bunch of mediocre seasons" Fedorov. BTW: Feds PPG = .95 Shanny = .89 Not exactly a huge difference .06, but point still taken, I wanted to put the numbers up to show they are not drastically different. The hall (IMO) is not awarded for a couple of or even 7-9 great seasons it is about the whole piece, the whole career and while Feds stats plummeted, Shanny's have stayed very consistent, hmm much like both of their play. How often did you see his A game? How often do you see Dats A game? The question isn't which would you choose when playing in a hypothetical (as I understand it) it was about who would you take on a night in night out, year after year, in their prime. Feds was hit or miss with effort and results, Dats appears to be pretty steady and consistent. Dats has 2 cups, Feds has 3. But not close, huh!?

Quick question for you then... Who won the Conn Smythe this year, seeing as this is indeed his contract year? Are you predicting a Z for Conn Smythe again or do you have a time machine? OR.. Are you just flaming the board and being a troll?

Yes I did, Shanny's numbers: 1492 651 690 1341 Feds Numbers: 1217 477 684 1161 Feds numbers are not as high as Shanny's. Same cup teams, so now the difference is goals/points and hart/ selke/pearson. Using Jim Carrey as my example (there are others, just not as glaring) one season with a trophy(ies) does not make you a HOFer. So if we say that 94 was his Jim Carrey year ©, that eliminates two of his awards and his 120 point season. I am not saying what he did is meaningless, just that like his play (inconsistent) it was a once in a career thing. 1994 is the only year you can say Feds was the best player. Other than that there were better players in the league and even on his team. Feds had five years of over 80 points (83, 86, 87, 105, 120) and 12 years under 80 (79, and a shat load of 60 point seasons) I left out 97-98 where he only played 21 games and had 17 points. Feds played 13 seasons with the Wings, of that 2 were the Selkie, Hart, Pearson years and the rest were above average. Lets not pretend like the 2 years he was phenomenal were his whole career. Over his career he ave 64.5 points a season. The highest scoring Russian of all time is a bs stat to throw out there, he was the first to come over in or before his prime. His totals will easily be passed by Dats, AO, and Pavel Bure would have buried (seriously no pun intended) him had he not been softer than a pane of glass. Shanny has a better shot (IMO) at the HOF and due to his 600 goal mark and his over 1200 points is (imo) a shoe in. And I correct my original post, I don't think he is a first ballot sure fire HOFer, at the time I was thinking Yzerman Jagr and typed Yzerman Shanny, oops! Feds may make it, but in my opinion is not a lock for the HOF, otherwise every player who had two phenomenal years is eligible. World play, how about Shanny's 1 World Championship and Gold Medal? Feds doesn't even have 500 goals let alone 600. He may make 1200 points but he better get on his horse if he wants to.

Actually Mr. Wise and All knowing, Hossa himself has stated that the top priority is Z and he will not begin negotiations until Z is done. But good try, valiant effort, weak product!!!

Maltby would have to retire or be traded he is signed through 09/10.