Opie

Thanks for posting this, I was going to, but you beat me to it!!! I will give more credit to Bowman than I will Feds too! Very true, if I had to pick it would be almost dead even, Dats personality is his edge, Feds ability to play D and shot to me put him over Dats, at this point in time. However I am looking at more than just on ice stuff so Dats consistency and team first attitude put him above Feds in my book. Now Feds (IMO) will not make the hall nor will his number be retired by the wings. Look at the numbers, I have spelled this out before, in order for Feds to make the Hall, this year and the next couple he would have to return to old form. Compare his numbers to Yzerman or Shanny they are first ballot sure fire hall of famers. Feds does not have 500 (477) goals, does not have 700 (684) assists, and only has 1161 points and is not a PPG player. Compare those numbers to a player who is sure fire HOFer and came into the league at the same time and has already left the league. Jaromir Jagr The argument that he was one of the best players of his era is Eva's way of posting something no one can argue with, that is fortunately not used in voting into the HOF, and I say he wasn't even better than Jagr who played at the same time as him. His definite slow down in production from leaving Det is the reason he is not HOFer. If he gets into the HOF it should have an * that says, he made it in because he played on the most dominant team in the era and Scotty Bowman screwed with his head until he actually played to his full potential every once and a little while!!

Of all the dumb s*** you have posted on this board oddly enough it is this one that shows your intelligence and gets you ignored. Man I could have sworn you above it, damn. I had held out hope that maybe just once you would answer a question I posed you, NOPE! Instead you so eloquently avoid what I asked you and and your well spoken reply was phenomenal. Nice reading your posts, to the Mindfly bin you go, rather ignore bin!

Downey does not enforce he seeks retribution!

Waivers, a player that the Wings value currently more than Downey would have to be exposed to the waiver wire. I said last year that the long term signing of Malts would hurt the Wings. He is a shadow of his former self. Draper, whom I didn't think would be as bad, is turning out to not be much more valuable at the momen. But if you sit Malts in favor of Abdelkader/Helm/Leino/Downey how do you get Abdelkader/Helm/Leino/Downey on the roster?

You are right they added all those pieces the physical play and the players only to beat the wings by one on a bonehead turnover and a great play by Marleau, it is not like they beat the Wings 6-0. Plus the Sharks had the added motivation of being absolutely owned by the Wings in every facet of the game the last time they played. They were at home, they were trying to prove that they are still the top dog. SJ had everything to prove in this game and yet they still only won by one goal. So why all the worry. Sure your point would be valid if the Sharks won 6-0, but they didn't they won 6-5 on a goal scored with what 2:30 left in the game. You act as thought they were manhandling the Wings the whole game. It was a great back and forth game that had a playoff feel, had physical play great goals, great passing, the only downside to that game was that the Wings lost. It happens they will lose. Better to lose to the best team in your conference than say I don't know Columbus, like SJ on Dec 17th, or the Flames on Jan 6, 15. Both of these teams will win games they shouldn't and lose games they shouldn't it is part of the NHL.

Esteef, How do you propose to make a 4th line change within this cap peril the wings are in. I have said it many times on this board and in this thread, even if you and I showed up tomorrow and told Holland we would play for free and make whatever sacrifice the team needed, they still couldn't do it without losing pieces they deem valuable to the franchise. The only thing the wings can hope for is this line to pick it up, why you ask! Simply the only way the wings can make a change would be to trade some one. They can not call up Downey, they can not call up Abdelkader, they can not call up Helm, they can not call up Leino. What exactly do you expect to happen, as far as change?

Thread killer, unfortunately this should have been but wasn't the end of the thread. E.S.A.D Honest question and if you don't like it you can tell me to go to hell I don't care, but seriously... Are you ever on here posting and starting new threads after a win??? This is almost as predictable a thread as when some one brings up best defensive forward on the team and Eva saying Z because of all of the PK time makes him more valuable. I can almost set my watch by both of these phenomenon. The wings need a Drake, not a Downey or Boogaard. Would I like to see Boogaard punch some one in the face sure, but do I think it will help the team win no! But lets also not forget that the wings couldn't call up you or I for free right now. So all of this clambering for a new fourth line is moot. Meech in or out is about all of the change you are going to see.

This is a great game!

Link Here are Babs thoughts on Cheli and the fact he was on the ice for all three es goals. He seemed to be a popular topic in this thread.

BEST POST IN AT LEAST A MONTH!!!!!!!

The best thing that could happen to the wings is some one throws an offer sheet at Hudler. IF you want them to be able to keep Hossa and Z, Franzen's salary and Hudler's salary would add up to Hossa's. However if no offer sheet is thrown at Huds forget it the math just doesn't work. But if a team like Toronto (doubt it with Burke and Huds size) or LA or even Was make a play at Huds the Wings get extra picks and can keep Hossa and let Mule test the waters. Now if Franzen is willing to stay on the cheap, Z signs cheap (He will be here in my mind for his career no questions) at 7-7.5, Hossa would have to be willing to take around 5 depending on how cheap mule is. All in all I think Z, Mule, and Hudler are back, just because of logistics. Sammy re-signs elsewhere same with Hossa. But if this is me at the helm I throw a front loaded contract at both Z and Hossa and hope Jiri is willing to play for peanuts. Then again I am no GM.

I wasn't offended I simply replied to the inaccurate statement you made about Hossa missing the net. But if you want to prove me wrong since he seems to hit everything but the net I will wait for you stats or vids to prove the point. If you weren't trying to say that Hossa is not able to score (which I backed up with stats) then why say it. If that was your point you are wrong and I will prove it. However it wasn't your point as you stated above, so why say it???? I think Z and Hossa are very comparable players, both top 10 in the league, both top 10 defensive forwards, Hossa is a little more physical and has a slightly better wrister imo, while Z appears to be the better leader and a more team dedicated guy. So either you want me to only read half of your posts (which leads to more confusion) or you posted something that you didn't really mean. Either way no skin off of my back, I will debate the topic with you if that is your stance if not, you should be a little more careful with your posts. Saying a guy that is 21 and 21 hits everything but the back of the net is a little odd to say when you don't mean it. Dontcha think.

No offense to Z, however if he leaves Dats would easily be a 'C', Kronwall looks to be here long term could take the A, and either Flip or Hudler or Homer or whomever is left over could take the other 'A'. Or even Hossa, because IF Z were to bolt, my thoughts are Holland would try to ink Hossa and by the time Lids is gone (the whole next 'C' thing) Hossa will be a couple of years into being on the team.

Anybody remember that pesky salary cap, the wings couldn't call me up right now if they wanted to and I would play for FREEEEEEEEEEEE!!

Are you serious, the man is a beast on the puck and very rarely gets pushed off of it, is a great defensive forward, has all of the tools that Z has, to me they are very comparable players. Slow to the puck, doesn't hustle?????? Am I out of place or does this post make no sense???

WOW what a great idea for a topic, it has got to be what 3 maybe 4 days since one of these popped up! Yup 3 days it is: Check out the time of my edit and time of my post, do some math and that is how long it took me to find this thread!

That is by far the best Stream I have used, as long as I am not taxing my processor out that feed is crisp and clean even at full screen!!! Whomever first discovered this site and posted it on here I LOVE YOU!! and I LOVE THE INTERNET!!!

My bad then. EDIT: Not trying to argue with you or get into this debate, just stating my thoughts on HUDS, they are as much my opinion as yours, please don't read this as though I am trying to disprove your opinion. However; even after re-reading it seems like you are trying to qualify Hulders play by saying that 41% of his points come from playing with multiple top flight players, which is wrong, he still only plays with Z. Plus his production IF he were on another team going down is as much your opinion and not fact as me or YG or Eva or NFM25 or Snepts or GS&T or anyone else's opinion on the matter not a fact. Who knows he could go to another team hell lets take LA, put him on a line with O'Sullivan and Frolov or Kopitar and you think he wont produce. PHO put him on Olli's line. It is not like Detroit cornered the market on top flight players. s*** put him on Boston's line up line 1 or 2 and he is producing, let him take Ryder's spot on line 2 (was his spot) or Lucic's on line 1( Lucic is on line 3 when on the ice now) and I bet he produces. Again all opinion! My point remains the same (without the needless rant) that your argument that the results of putting him on another team is a non fact and that you are trying really hard to find something to use as a negative for him if you are using the fact that 41% of his points are PP. I truly believe if you put him or Flip on another team where they can be (edit: part of) the focal point of attack and they will be a lot better than they are. Both have played against top flight talent in the regular season and the post season and it has not slowed their games once. I am not saying Atlanta can trade Kovie and sign Hudler and it will be a wash, that is just silly, but that if he were to be used along side of a Kovie he would excel. He is a very very good complimentary piece at this point in his career, and along side of a top flight player he would provide a lot. He is not the piece you build around, I agree with you on that, however as a complimentary piece he has already PROVEN to be a top 6 forward on a cup winning roster. To me that says a lot. IF I am still missing your point I apologize!!! I have my good days and bad days and sometimes I get caught up in all of the bitchin' and then lash out. Sorry about that I never even looked to see who was posting the statements, just saw YG's comments and yours with out looking to see who posted. Again, My bad! But I never stated you wanted him off of the team, I did say you were bitching, but I never said you wanted him gone or that he was worthless, for the record.

The play you tried to describe was not an "Empty net" as you described it, Turco was out of position, yes. However after the puck deflected off of Hossa you may notice in the replay that his stick is not the only one going for the puck. He was attempting to slam it home. Which imo was the right move. If he waits to see if the puck will continue in, the defenseman or Turco would have swatted it with his stick. That was not an empty net, good try though. Even after your description of the play I fail to see how that vid or statement back up your original statement that: Hossa has 21 g and 21 a, I think he is handling his own pretty well. To say he is hitting everything except the net is a stretch. Maybe Hossa's slow streak and the fact he left Dat's line aren't exactly a coincidence. Who knows but either way when you try to use a vid to back up a statement you should at least back up the part in question. Did any one on here question Z's ability to make plays and pass, no. Therefore no need to provide evidence to back it up. You claimed Hossa can't hit the net and show a vid of Hank passing to Dats from last season. Did any one on here question Z's ability to make plays and pass, no. Therefore no need to provide evidence to back it up. He claimed Hossa can't hit the net and showed a vid of Hank passing to Dats from last season. How does that back up his argument. Make a statement that Z is a great passer and then show a bunch of Z plays. Make a statement that Lids is the best D man in the world, then show a bunch of Lids plays, say Hossa can't hit the net and then show him missing the net consistently when he should be burying the puck. Point is, the guy is a machine, and like Dats and Z he too will go through hot and cold streaks. Too bad his cold streak is a PPG this guy is lazy and sucks © trade him for Chris Neil!! EDIT: If that is the sweetest play you have ever seen you have not been watching hockey very long or are a HUGE HOMER. I don't through the homer tag out that often, but really that was sweeter than AO scoring on his head, Flip's Booby Orr impersonation, Bobby Orr's Bobby Orr goal. Come on dude/dudette really sweetest play ever, Dats with Turco on Fort Street, hanging people's jock's in the rafters and that is the sweetest play????

That was why I tried to state it as non-assholish as I could. EPIC FAIL! I was more covering why I thought he would have a hard time exploding into his hits. I am not here to defend his play, just saying I have had knee injuries and see athletes take a while to come back. I also was trying to state the reason why he wouldn't be hitting to top form. But I also disagree that Kopecky is a non factor, a non factor would log 3 minutes a night and have 4 minutes in PIMs and be a -5. I will give you that this line is struggling and is by far the worst line on the team, but on a team like this the worst line is still better than most of the league's worst lines.

UMM who is on his PP that is one of the best forwards in the league. You say some of, that indicates plural, last I saw he was playing on a pp with Z (give you that one), Mule (lets not get ahead of ourselves here, a couple of partial seasons added together to make one great season doesn't count for a nearly 30 year old), Sammy and Kronwall, when there are no injuries. Correct? If I am wrong I will admit it!!! It is not like he is on the 1st PP with Hossa and Dats not to mention Lids and Ralf. So lets say he has 14% of his points on the PP, does it really %$#@&^% matter! He is scoring when he has the opportunity, if he scored all of his goals on ES and had no goals on the PP people would *****. He is on the PP, the pp's job is to score, he is scoring, therefore he is helping the team and PP do their job. Jesus you people are so hard to satisfy, he is playing a ppg level right now and you want to complain because 41.2356897646475654% of his goals are on the PP! WHAT!!!

Can I use a highlight from 89 to show that if Stevie and Hossa played together Hossa would be the reason Stevie did not get more assists or stats? I mean it is as comparable as the above video. If you are saying that Hossa has been set up by Hank and has not been burying the biscuit, I have an idea show a video of Hossa shooting wide, off of the post, off the goalie, off the netting, anything involving a pass from Hank that Hossa should have buried and didn't! Edit: Otherwise I have to go with Hank on this one here and chalk his less than Zetterberg stats up to the fact that he is not playing as well as he has in the past. I mean I guess him saying it to the Versus crew was his way of covering up for Hossa's poor play?

Have you blown out your knee before? Honest question, ask any doctor for an athlete to return to the form that they were in before the injury would take roughly 1 full year, he is barely 7 months removed from his injury, and started playing this season barely 5 months after the injury. (Right he was injured in May?) The knee may be "Healed", but is his leg back to the condition it was? Speaking from experience when you do damage to your knee like that it is not only your knee that needs to recover, your entire upper leg does. You will not use your leg for a couple of months, the muscles get atrophy. And the ones that surround the knee will go from being on top of the knee, to drooping down beside the knee. Lateral movement, the kind involved in almost every hockey move, is going to not only be painful at first, but there is this whole mental thing you have to get over first. That when you put pressure on the knee in different angles that it won't completely fall apart again. And hitting is combining two things that mentally will be a bit more difficult to over come, the ability to explode with the knee, to drive the legs will not only not be what it was, but also will make him hesitant. He will not want to put that kind of explosion into the knee at first, and it will take a while for him to have the confidence in the leg. Add that the fact that if he does get over the act of exploding off of that leg he will have to overcome the image of potentially smashing his knee off of the board or another leg. Not saying these things aren't overcomable (Is that a word?) and he certainly has access to better health care and PT than I do or did, but I am just over 2 years out from my knee surgery (10/31/06) and my knee is still not right, granted I also broke my tibial plateau so I have some severe structural damage to work with. And all of this is IF the surgery and rehab were 100%, look at Tom Brady a simple staff infection could potentially add another 6-8 months of rehab and recovery. I am not making excuses for the guy but you seem to pass off a knee injury like it is a sprained ankle, and it appears as though you have never had one. That is why I bring these points up. WOW! I was seriously not trying to be an ass here but some of those statements sound like I was. YG no offense meant man! EDIT: Also the fact that the team is hamstrung by the cap and has been since the day after signing flip, the team had very few options to fill out the roster and not expose guys to the waiver wire.

Didn't you have the same argument last season? Just saying.

Why do people keep grouping Mule with Hossa and Z, like in the post above? Are you seriously putting Franzen in the same category, I hope not he is in the Huds/Flip category. If even that. Or unless you were grouping by age? Franzen is a near 30 year old who is finally starting to show the ability to score. He goes on tears from time to time yes, he has a great shot at times yes. Now he just needs to find a way to turn that time to time into a consistent ability. To me it is Z v Hossa and Franzen V Hudler/sammy as far as who gets kept. With Z, even if he takes a huge discount to play at 6.7 all but eliminates Hossa, and if the cap goes down signing Franzen along with one of the first two all but eliminates Huds and Sammy. My prediction, Z signs at about 7.5, Mule signs for about 5 from another team, Hudler takes flip money, and Sammy takes 3 mil from another team. Franzen's last contract wasn't exactly easy and he was a nobody, Sammy is a steal at that price and maybe wanting to win keeps him around that cheap, but you can't blame a guy for chasing down a few extra mil!! Or can you?