Opie

Dabura, You should know that I off all people am not a Sammy basher, my point to trading him would be for salary cap only, same with my feeling about Lilja, if money was not a question neither (IMO) would need to be traded.

I am not a celebrity of any shape of form, but even I wouldn't want you posting that s*** on a website. Would you also like to let everyone know what school his kids go to, when they are out at recess, what is their favorite restaurant? What possess some one to give directions to some one's house, baring in mind they don't know the person at all other than being a fan?

Oh I agree +/- is a misleading stat, for instance he was a -21 on a pre-Crosby post-Lemieux/Jagr Pens. On those teams even Lids would struggle to get a +. You may be one of the few posters on here that ***** about Sammy and actually be able to back it up. Most of the time people just rag on him because it is the in thing to do. But your statement was that he turns it over more often than he keeps it on his stick, is absurd and you have no way to prove it and I have no way to disprove it, that is why you used it. Does he turn it over a lot, yeah, but like stated most of the time it is in the offensive zone, which also helps why his +/- doesn't sag, players behind him. But to flat out deny that he does any good is absurd, his two unassisted goals set the tone for the SCF series. His secondary scoring was needed, his ability to play all 4 lines, plus PP point has helped the wings more than any of his turnovers or wide shots have hurt them. You have no use for Sammy on your team but yet Maltby you see viably because of all things he hits? Lets say you take Sammy out and you replaced him with Maltby, who plays the second line, Huds? Maltby? Drake? My whole stance with Sammy is not that I think he is great or irreplaceable but that he is a solid player making less than he should and he produces at a clip that Maltby only did for a very short period of time, and if you want to talk about talent around you making you better, Malts is example 1! Sammy does what is needed of him, no more no less. He provided scoring depth when in actuality he was brought on board for defensive play. His coach tells him to shoot more, he shoots more. What is it you expect from the guy, a power forward, a sniper, an all-star? The guy is by very definition of the term a top 6 forward on a Stanley cup winning roster, that is all I ask of him. (he is top 6 for forwards on this team) But sure we disagree on it, that doesn't mean that I will stop posting about it.

EDIT: Sorry, read that sentence wrong ignore what I first wrote here! Either way you were right, but Rafalski's turnover led to the game winner, who is to blame for losing the game? My point is turnovers happen, Sammy has had so many that you can find one that led to a goal. I can find a video of Lids putting one in the back of his own net. What does that prove, mistakes happen. If Sammy is so turnover proned why then can you not find one from every game, from half of the games he played, a quarter of the games? Because you exaggerated when you said My counter point to your statement would be that Sammy was a + player, if he turned it over more than he had possession he would have a -, and furthermore on a puck possession team like Detroit if he turned the puck over more than he possessed it, he would be off of the team instead of receiving praise from his coach. But you go on hating the guy for whatever reason you have and I will continue rooting for the team not for or against the players.

Got a link, I googled game 4 and cannot find anything like that, it all says after a pass from Ribeiro?

All I can find on that Morrow goal is that it came off of Ribiero's pass, nothing about a turn over. But that was the no goal for Homer's rear end in the crease but half of Eriksson was in the blue paint but his goal counted.

GWG of game four was scored by Modano on the PP, 3-1 game, Morrow's goal was the 3rd and I am still researching to see if it came off of a turn over or if that was the bad change by cheli that caused that one.

No wonder the dude is willing to play for way below market value, that house is huge and Beautiful!!!

Sweet Lids is a Pat's fan!!!

Did you mean THE Chuck Norris or Kris Draper the Chuck Norris look-a-like?

I stand corrected and yet I am still right in the discussion I was having, thanks for making my point stronger than I had made it, not only did he get assists in that series he also scored, just saying. Thanks Crymson!

I actually believe Sammy will be a salary cap casualty especially if a guy like Leino or Abdelkader shows the goods. Last season I thought Sammy was a necessity to this team, he was needed to fill out the top 6. But with the development of Mule, Flip, Hudler, Cleary and the addition of Hossa the void Sammy filled is gone. The only factor that holds that up is whether or not the Wings will be satisfied with what is left for the PP2 point. If Babs thinks Stuart can hold down the second pp2 point than I see Sammy and Lilja as packaged for cap space. While I know it only takes one of them to clear the space Holland usually (pre-Hossa) likes to operate around 1 mil under cap, call it room for growth. Not sure he needs that room. Either way my point was that this year Sammy is far more expendable than he was last season.

Accident or not it was a stupid play! Especially in training camp! When you see a guys numbers and he is against the boards you do not hit him. Downey was lucky to not have hurt Flip, Sammy was unlucky to hurt Cleary yet Sammy was bashed for months for breaking Cleary's jaw! To paraphrase Doc Holiday: "(This boards) Hypocrisy knows no bounds!"

Maltby? Kopecky? Chelios? Lebda? What about these guys is so much better than Sammy? BTW, the hip thing on these boards is still trashing Sammy, there are about 10 posters defending him. The reason why a few people defend him now, is they realize he is a very good deal at 1.2 mil, he scores 40 points a season, has been no worse than 6th for forwards in points scored the 3 years he has been a wing. Not too shabby for a guy brought in to be a defensive forward. He plays the PP, he can play any of the 4 lines, he forechecks (as evident by the two Mule goals he helped create in the Av's series), what do you want from the guy, some one who is going to be a power forward, guess what he is as much a power forward as Jagr is, unfortunately I think some of the posters on here expect him to have Jagr's offensive upside. He is a solid all around player, he can score, he can set up, he can play in his own zone, he forechecks. I think the problem lies more in people's expectations of him rather than anything he does. What was meant by sticks up for himself is when was the last time a fighter had to fight Sammy's battle for him? However Maltby when at his pest best had D-mac throwing the punches while Malts ran away still running his mouth. Just so that you know Maltby makes roughly 300k less than Sammy and provides ZILCH that Sammy can't do.

What if instead of a jammed thumb it was a broken wrist, feasible seeing as the thumb and wrist are really close to each other, would you think it was no big deal still. No one is saying Downey needs to be suspended for life and sent to the KHL, what was said is he needs to think about what he is doing when it comes to hitting teammates in a scrimmage. Boarding is dangerous whether it be a teammate or an opponent. These are the exact same hits that he is on the team to exact revenge for. Downey is a very replaceable part to this team, Flip on the other hand is not as easily replaceable. The other point people are making is the exact one you just personified. If this was Sammy people would freak out, yet the Downey lovers are on here in numbers pissed off that some one even questioned Downey's hit. And what is it that they use as justification, well Flip wasn't hurt so what is the problem. Sammy can be bashed, berated, trashed and anyone speaking up in his defense doesn't watch hockey or know what they are talking about. HOWEVER, question a hit (that was without a doubt a stupid hit during training camp scrimmages) from Downey and look at the people claiming the questioners are blowing it out of proportion. The problem with the hit is that even if it were against an opponent it is a stupid hit and the reason the Wings are so high on this guy as a fighter is that he doesn't do these types of things. He needs to be a smart fighter/enforcer in order to stay on this roster. Boarding anyone, especially a teammate, does not show great mental strength. That is what we are pointing out here, but sorry for saying anything negative about Downey, I should have known better, don't question the actions of a fighter on this board.

Yes but what you conveniently left out of your 3 rounds without scoring is that he went three rounds without scoring a goal, it is not like he didn't have assists, so while yes he was not scoring goals in those three rounds he was actually producing points and helping the team. So maybe those who were bashing him were off base? No, not on here not people unmercifully bashing Sammy for no reason, no. I didn't say you were bashing him, what I said was that there are others(Maltby to be specific) on the team that perform worse statistically and visually (I guess that covers the I can see them skate, I watch them play). Maybe using your "I'm just sayin'" to prove a point rubbed you the wrong way, but what did I do that was D-bag. You were simply saying he didn't score in the first three rounds (which you probably should have been more specific about as he did have assists), I was simply saying when was the last time Maltby did ANYTHING, yet he is not brought up in every thread no matter the relevance and trashed. Posters (maybe not you) have found it trendy to bash the guy, yet leave others alone. Your point that I quoted was, that he wasn't scoring in the first three rounds, when actually compared to most of the team he was performing exceptionally well the entire post season. Sammy's forecheck led directly to 2 Mule goals in Col only one did he get an assist on , He had an assist from the point on the PP for Mule in Col. But wait a second, wasn't that in one of the first 3 rounds, nah couldn't have been he didn't do s*** for the first three rounds as evident by the bashing he took on LetsGoWings!

Well I'm just sayin' when was the last time Maltby scored? When was the last time maltby put up 15 goals or 40 points? When was the last time Maltby was not the lowest +/- on the team of regular players? Yet for some reason it is Sammy who gets s*** on, I'm just sayin'!

I re use my Tool quote from the other thread covering this: So you are using the no harm no foul rule to say this isn't a big deal, what others are saying is that it could have been a lot worse, you are ignoring that fact and saying, nothing bad happened what is the big deal. Well the big deal is what if the injury had been worse, Randy Jones didn't think his hit on Bergeron was a big deal either!

So just in case I went back and read the whole thread again, and the above 4 posts where the only ones that talked about Downey in negative light away from the hit itself. One person (the bolded quote) Said that he was reckless and that D-mac and Quincey should take his place, not exactly the whole board ripping Downey a new one. Posters cite Downey's play because at this point in time all he can do is throw punches, that is it, do not delude yourself to believing he does anything else on the ice. What he is called upon to do, he does well, but there is a reason he sees 4 minutes a night, there is a reason he himself has said he needs to work on his skill to make this team. There is no "Clear implication" in fact most posters after saying this was a dumb, idiotic, careless, or "Heat of the moment" incident went on to say he needs to smarten up if he wants playing time, there is a log jam of young forwards waiting for ice time, another fighter (sort of in Mac), he needs to use his head in order to see ice time. That is not people dogging on him or a conspiracy to get Downey off of the Wings.

Seeing as he is so awful and is such a liability back there you must be able to point to one maybe two times he let up a shorty in the years he has been on the pp2 point? Right I mean if his mistakes are that bad you must have a s***load of proof, otherwise you just pulled that statement out of your ass, which one? HE makes enough to keep "US" over cap, I am sorry that is it, everyone on the team making more than $1.2 mil needs to be off of the team to make salary room! EDIT: We have been over this 8,000 times on this board, Babs likes the lefty righty combo on his PP points, he also likes the way Sammy plays back there, thus Sammy is at the point. When you want to start critiquing that decision show me your coaching resume and when it is close to Babs I will take your opinion over his.

If this loss was at the F position I would be more inclined to agree with you, however they are not deep at all on D, however neither is most of the eastern conference. But you add to the fact that Whitney is already out with surgery, it looks shakey for their D to start! Plus it looks like a separated shoulder and he will be back sooner rather than later. Cicada's link:

Did I miss some one saying Downey should be booted? I am pretty sure everyone said he made a mistake and learned his lesson.

True but usually they say something along the lines of an upper body injury or something like that.

That was a lot of help!

Well lets see, he did it in practice, no one said he is likely to do it, what was said is IF he had done the same thing in a game it would have been 5 and a game. Fil was back to the incident, him saying it was unavoidable is him using coach/player speak. He is trying not to cause any problems, Draper on the other hand who was able to see the entire play including Downey approaching the hit saw it another way. I am not saying he did it on purpose or that there was any malicious intent, but either way it was a bad hit (especially on a teammate) and that kind of dumb play/penalty could cost the Wings. Now he doesn't or won't play much time in the post season so if he does it, at worst you are looking at a lost regular season game. My statements on here are more geared towards the discussion board's/poster's reaction to it, not necessarily what Downey was or wasn't trying to do. He shouldn't have done it, and he and Draper clearly are on the same page with that now. As far as him being all of the sudden likely to do it in a game, he all of the sudden did it in a team scrimmage, where he should be more aware of the hitting he is doing, because of possible damage to teammates. One can very easily draw the conclusion that because he did it in a match against players, he would actually be more likely than last year to do it in a game. Seeing as last year I don't remember him boarding a teammate, then he didn't do it in the regular season. This year he did it in training camp, so one can easily worry he would do it in a game!