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I'll have to play around on Dobber, I hadn't seen that before. Konopka's PIMs are huge, but the majority of the minutes are from fights and 10 minute misconducts (usually with a few min left in a game). He isn't a loose cannon, but he does seem to enjoy sticking up for his teammates. If posters here are willing to support SOB on the team, Konopka's bad penalities aren't an issue.

Is Moen 2x+ the salary better than Konopka? Also, Moen is a year younger than Konopka. Further, Konopka severely outscored Moen at the AHL level (which doesn't fully translate) and therefore may have an offensive upside greater than what he has produced in the past. These players are professional hockey players, and most centers don't have a problem playing wing- it's the other way around that's difficult. Do you have the statistics for the amount of time Konopka played with Stamkos and St. Louis? I know he played on the third line with Downie a bit, but I don't remember him regularly playing with St. Louis. I appreciate you getting those statistics- it helps the discussion when there are more posters willing to do the legwork. However, I think those are better applied to comparing top line players. If a 5 point difference from a fourth liner(suggested by Shaman for Konopka-Miller), makes or breaks the Wings making the playoffs or winning the cup, then the Wings are in trouble beyond that position. As has been berated in this thread, Konopka's stats aren't immediately comparable to Millers, especially for the past season, because of linemates. Also, there are few measures that relay what a fourth line is for- hitting, wearing down the other team, sticking up for teammates (you can disagree with this), solid D, and chipping in a goal every few games. They aren't on the fourth line to put up 30+ points a year. This forum is funny because posters always say that they will accept an enforcer who can actually play. Konopka is as close as you're going to get outside of the power forward Clowe, Lucic, etc type that many of the same posters wouldn't want fighting since they put up a lot of points.

Who, other than you, disagreed that Konopka could score 20 points playing 82 games with Helm and Mursak? In 09-10, Konopka did not play with Downie that majority of the time. Downie's 46 points that season did not come on Konopka's wing (if they did, Konopka must be doing something right). Kane is a developing power forward who will only fight when forced. Downie played much more time with Tampa's top players than he would in Detroit. When he's a FA and Bert is gone, I wouldn't be against having him on the Wings one bit. However, his contract (and Kane's) is far beyond the money the other players mentioned in this thread will command. Moen has only scored over 20 points once, and scored as little as 8 points in a season. How does Moen have a much greater upside than Konopka? Also, many of the posters you believe are pro-enforcer wanted Moen.

If I (or Newfy) wanted a player like that on the Wings, we would be posting about MacIntyre and McGrattan instead of McCormick and Konopka. Our argument is that Konopka can do at least 90% of what Miller can do offensively and on the PK at the same price while also being the Wings' enforcer. If you don't believe teams should carry enforcers, any argument you make in this thread is irrelevant because you have an underlying bias against these players (which it seems like you do). However, there are many posters here (inside and outside of this thread) who believe that a player like Konopka can do things other than score that can help the Wings win.

Therefore, Konopka rarely played with the same linemates. Having AHL level players rotate through your line isn't a recipe for success.

Didn't you claim to watch Isles games this year? Konopka certainly took multiple shifts with the top-3 lines, but that was not his lineup place. Shouldn't someone who watches Isles games be informed about this?

Are you aware of the Islanders situation of trying to rebuild the team through youth and prospects? For their team, sticking their skill players on the fourth line while they develop isn't part of development plan. No one here is saying that Konopka is anything but a good fourth liner. If Hudler played with May and Downey posters here would certainly blame him lack of production on the linemates. Hudler has not played with players like Gillies, Haley, or Martin all year. This argument is non-sensible.

Did you not read the post that stated Konopka chose to play for the Isles because of the playing time he would get there to, you know, develop his game? As far as Gillies is concerned, he did only play 39 games mostly due to suspensions. Therefore, Konopka played the rest of the games with players deemed less skilled than Gillies by the Isle's organization. Is Abdelkader also not capable of producing 20 points because he only put up 6 when playing mostly with Maltby and May? Your argument doesn't hold. As has been stated in this thread many times, Konopka has the potential and hasn't been given the linemates to reach that potential. See his AHL number for confirmation on this (56 points and 187 PIMS for 70 games). Players with potential that can fight aren't always picked up right away, and they don't always show their potential right away either. Prust never had more than 14 points in a season until this year when he had 29. I suppose he would have also been a bad signing by your logic. As Newfy pointed out, Konopka's linemates have had 35 points over the past two seasons. The fact that he managed 9 points this year isn't bad considering that fact. Do you have any real argument aside from berating facts that you haven't shown to be completely factual, and that you present without full context?

It isn't something the Wings need, but it isn't something that will hurt the team. As we saw in the playoffs, the Wings like to have two players that can take the faceoff on the PK. More importantly is that Konopka can actually play the PK, unlike most enforcers that accumulate the amount of fights he does. I think that 20 points per season is a very obtainable mark if Konopka could get ~82 games in with the Wings, especially with Helm and Mursak on his line. I would think that 30 points is around his ceiling though.

I've watched at least 20 Isles games this season and provided you with numbers that prove Konopka is not the goon on skates you portray him to be. Yet, your argument has continued to decrease in facts. The Wings could always use more PKers that are great at faceoffs. And Konopka has an offensive upside that you continue to ignore. Your argument has essentially boiled down to the Wings won't sign him. Aside from anyone on the current roster, it's easy to bet against anyone not being signed by the Wings. However, that doesn't discount the fact that he would be a decent signing for the Wings. If we only went on what was likely, the off-season would be pretty boring around here. It hasn't been said here, but Konopka is one of the few players who can play a shift and fight the amount of times necessary on a Wings team void of other fighters. FWIW a lot of the players mentioned in the OP aren't enforcers.

You seem to be dodging your original argument that Konopka doesn't have the skill necessary to play on the Wings. My point is that Konopka is a good enough player to be on the Wings' fourth line and that he can also fight. Therefore, his isn't just a fighter on skates as you paint him to be. Holland signed Downey and May. These players weren't better than the Wings' other choices and they surely aren't better than Konopka. For one they didn't have the offensive potential of Konopka (May did, but not while on the Wings), and Konopka is a great PK'r and faceoff man.

There is actually plenty of evidence of Konopka's offensive skill. In the AHL he averaged ~.80 ppg, and he was a 1+ ppg player in the OHL his last season. While that doesn't always translate to the NHL, he certainly has the ability even when averaging 150+ PIMs a year. Further, as I stated earlier in the thread, he has been playing with Gillies and Haley (or Martin). None of those three players have the same skill as Helm, Mursak, or Eaves. He also averaged 10:11 toi this year, despite being on the aforementioned line. FYI the toi does not include time spent in the box (to my knowledge). I can certainly respect your belief that fighters are no longer needed in the NHL, but 20+ NHL GM's disagree with you. What is wrong with a bottom 3 of Konopka-Helm-Mursak with Emmerton and Miller as the extra forwards? IMO two of Eaves, Miller, and Draper will likely be gone. IMO Emmerton will be another Ritola and might not be on the Wings next season.

Last year Konopka was not fighting to keep a roster spot. Gillies was below him on the depth chart and still played almost every game he wasn't suspended. The Isles sure thought they were getting pushed around because they said the game against the Penguins was a response to the Isles having their younger players ran by multiple teams (with Pitt being the worst offender). I'll take their word for it. Your post doesn't address the point I made of Konopka's playing ability. I have no doubt he could produce at least 75% of Miller's points while also providing an intangible element the Wings lack. If you take away Miller's points while not on the fourth line, Konopka could likely match him. Konopka is the type of enforcer that the Wings could play 82 games a year. With the current depth it probably won't happen, but that excuse is around every year with the Wings development system. Personally, I think we're (unfortunately) more likely to see McGrattan signed and play 30 games than Konopka.

Why is arguing Konopka's PIMs a relevant point? Konopka spent 3.5 (per ten mins of ice time) defending his teammates, something Miller did not do this season. Since most of his PIMs are from fighting (or 10 min misconducts from the refs 'settling the game down'), I can't agree with your negative spin on the stat. The player you want won't exist on the Wings. There are only a few scorers who will fight (Lucic, Clowe, Stewart), and they come at a price premium. Also, these players would be encouraged by the Wings not to fight since they would be key offensive figures. If you think Konopka is bad in the box, try having one of your second liner's in the box that much. The argument for a skilled fighter contradicts your first point of too many PIMS because of the necessity of PIMs to fighting. Konopka got 9 points this year playing with Trevor Gillies and Michael Haley (or Matt Martin). Think for a minute about those players and compare them to Helm and Eaves. Then think more about the significant amount of offense Miller adds above Konopka- it's not nearly as much as you think.

Konopka is the most realistic and best fit for the Wings IMO. However, he would want to be a permanent part of the lineup since he has been for a few years and I'm not sure the Wings would commit to that. Funny enough, the Wings might be more likely to sign a more pure enforcer that wouldn't command as many games than the players mentioned here. I would prefer Konopka, but Rosehill is my preference for a last forward enforcer (due to his skating ability). As I said in my thread, the Wings should throw an offer sheet at Peckham.

The offer-sheet needed to sign Weber would cost the Wings four first round picks (two first round, a second, and a third if you believe Nashville won't match 6.5 million). Not only is this not a deal Holland would likely make because of how draft picks are valued, but Nashville would be crazy not to match any offer under 7 million. If anyone seriously believes Weber will be a Wing next year, I'll start taking that bet. The only UFA/RFA's I'd like to see the Wings go after are gritty forwards/d. The talented players are going to be looking to get as much of that cap raise as possible, and there won't be many deals. Konopka and Peckham are two players I would like. As far as forward talent is concerned, Franzen would need to be traded.

With the cap going up a lot this year (relatively), I don't think there will be many deals available on the UFA defensemen. I hope I'm wrong, but agents will likely be pushing for their players to get as much of that new cap space as possible. IMO the best thing to do is trade, but the Wings don't have many tradeable players. IMO Franzen would have to be traded for the Wings to acquire any top-4 dman talent, and while I'm a huge Mule fan, I'm afraid of his contract in a few years.

Theo Peckham seems to be the type of Dman the Wings need. He is big, bruising, young, and can fight most MW's, LHW's. He is a RFA, but his rights would come cheap if the Oilers were willing to deal him- which I'm not sure they would want to do. Maybe they would have some interest in Hudler. IMO he could be a top 4 Dman if he develops, and at worst a 5-6 Dman who can punish the other team's offense. If Lids stays another season, I think it would be a great move to sustain the defense until Lids retires.

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I was for E being re-signed, but I don't support him getting 2mill+ from the Wings. At that rate, I'd be fine with him walking.

Very proud of the Wings for forcing the game seven. Still confused about that last change though...

Who's growing one this year?

How is he supposed to chip away at Niemi and Murray from the bench?

Has Hudler done anything this series? He hasn't, and that's why Abby will stay in the lineup.

His hit on Thornton was key on Cleary's goal, but he does take many, many stupid penalties. In this series he's been better than Hudler IMO.