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I agree that Abby's regular season in Detroit wasn't stellar, but he wasn't playing with skilled players. Most of his time spent up was with May and Maltby- I'm not sure what third line center in the league could look exceptional with those players. Playing with Mursak and Ritola in GR, he looked better with more skilled players; therefore, I hope he gets that chance here next year. Abby certainly isn't going to carry the line I mentioned, but with Huds and Cleary he won't have to. He and Cleary playing together would bring a level of physicality to that line as well. I like Eaves on the forth with Helm because Eaves has a good (not great) offensive ability.

Even with Flip centering that line, one of Abby, Helm, Eaves has to play on it. I fail to see how having Abby center the line somehow negates any scoring threat they have. He has the speed and puck handling abilities necessary to center an NHL line. Although AHL success doesn't always translate to NHL success, Abby managed ~.7ppg in the AHL over his career. How is he somehow an offensive liability?

It was posted somewhere here that the Wings are looking to have three scoring lines again next year. Z, D, Flip (I assume after this season), and Franzen are likely to be in the top six when the season starts. Homer and Bert (to a lesser extent) should play with good puck handlers/skaters to be most effective. That leave Hudler and Cleary for the third line. Hudler will also be playing on the second PP, so he will have chances regardless of line. Here's what I would like to see. Flip- Dats- Homer Franzen- Z- Bert Hudler- Abby- Cleary Eaves- Helm- UFA Fighter (ex. Burish) Ritola

Hartnell had the Flyers only playoff fight. While they had a good amount of middle-weights all season, they rarely dressed Cote (their heavyweight). There were one of the tougher teams, but I did enjoy watching Orr run wild against them all season.

I agree, but maybe Konopka could make the switch to wing? Helm's speed is a great asset at the center position; however, I haven't wanted enough of Konopka to comment on his skating and positioning abilities.

Of the UFA's I would prefer Konopka, Burish, or Thornton. Asham would be ideal, but he will likely command 1mill+ and want a third line role. I was surprised to see that Konopka had some scoring success in the AHL- he could possibly rack up 15+ points with the Wings forth line. Of the RFA's, I like Prust, Boll, and Glass.

Personally, I don't think Miller fit in very well when those players were hurt; during his time on the second line. While he brings great energy and solid defensive play, he didn't do much on the upper lines to suggest he belonged.

Probably not. If we call up a skill player, Mursak will be the first one in line. Hopefully we won't have enough injuries that Mursak and Tatar will be needed.

Can you show that teams in the KHL are profitable. From everything I've read, they aren't. Ticket prices are low, stadiums are (relatively) small, advertising is abundant but not enough, etc. It seems that, for now, the KHL is almost a status symbol for the owners. They seem to be losing money each year, but many of the owners have money to lose.

Who's the odd man out then?

I wish we could get this. But, I don't see Armstrong taking less money than he currently makes, and I think Bert and Homer will get slight raises above what you have. A larger problem is that you don't have any spare forwards or defensemen, and there is little cap room. There will be two more players on the roster than you have listed, and, as a result, you would need to work your number down a bit more for the roster to work even with two league minimum players. If Lids takes a large paycut it could happen, but I would personally bet against it.

How does this roster work under the cap if Lids is returning for over 5 million? I'd like it as much as anyone, but with Lids coming back (and Draper on the books), it likely won't happen unless you switch Armstrong for Bert or Homer. Then, we are left in the same need/want for a 4th line gritty/fighter that we were before Armstrong was mentioned. Therefore, if isn't as much as Armstrong vs. Burish-type as much as it is Armstrong vs. Bert or Homer.

I was speaking (typing) in more general terms. I don't think the addition of Armstrong would necessarily mean that another gritty player won't be signed. Without letting Bert, Homer, or someone else most assume have a spot on the roster, there is little room for Armstrong under the cap with Lids coming back for 5+ million. I would love to have Armstrong, but I think the Wings need to keep looking for someone with more toughness than him (for the forth line, whether or not Armstrong is signed). If Abby is the toughest player on the Wings next year, I will be disappointed.

Why do a large percentage of LGWers assume that the forth line should somehow log 12+ minutes a night? There simply isn't enough ice time for that to happen with powerplays and PK's. Also, there are a light of 'fighters' who can play a PK shift, thus increasing their minutes. However, this won't increase their points. Also, a player that plays feisty and hits is going to be asked to fight (not infrequently). Therefore, fighting and hitting are not wholly separable. Also, I fail to see the logic in not wanting someone who can stick up for their skilled (weaker) players. I'd be willing to bet that most of the anti-enforcer crowd on LGW have never played competitive hockey.

You're right- I underestimated his worth and he's currently making ~700k. He probably won't need much of a raise considering his injuries last season. I assume Nystrom will get some offers around/just below the 1 million mark, which will probably be too much for the Wings.

I misunderstood you- I thought you were referring to Burish, who I would say is a good bargain at ~500-600k.

Care to share with us the amazing, useful, player you've scouted that will expect <600k a year and be willing to drop the gloves?

I remember reading that Burke would have liked to see Rosehill in more games this past season. I watched a lot of Leafs games this year because I love their team tenacity. At one point they iced a forth line of Orr- Mayers- Rosehill (clip here ).

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I agree. While the Joe isn't a great arena (anymore), I don't see why it can't suffice until a new arena can be financed and built. It's not that bad...

My main priority for an enforcer is that they can skate and hit well. This will allow them to be successful in a fourth ling grinding role. Goals will come with the Wings' depth if they can do these things. I'd like to Wings to pick up someone who can police the game (must also be tougher than Abby). This doesn't mean they have to instigate for no/little reason, but I want someone there to retaliate when other teams take liberties. This might be 10 fights a year, but it might also be 20+. I haven't watched many Calgary games lately, so I cannot attest to Nystrom's abilities here. Someone like Jared Boll would be a perfect fit for the Wings, so whoever is closest to this I would be happiest with (more skill is always better though). With that said, Colton Orr is my favorite current enforcer (although he won't ever be a Wing) because he is a decent player and polices the game very well.

It seems that we agree on a lot on here. I'd like to see a roster very similar to yours. Maybe try to below lines (which may not have the chemistry, but the skill is there). In the above, did you forget Kindl or are you omitting him on purpose? I'd be fine letting Lilja go with Janik up full time as the 6th/7th defensemen. Flip- Dats- Homer Franzen- Z- Bert Huds- Abby- Cleary Eaves- Helm- Burish

Abby has a higher offensive upside than Helm. In the AHL, Abby was much closer to being a PPG player than Helm. Also, Abby played most of last season (NHL time) with May and Maltby. While he is slower, Abby does have better hands and finishing ability than Helm. Hopefully he gets a chance to improve these skills this year.

As I said, if you would like to debate this further with me, please start a new thread or PM me. You've dug yourself a hole by saying, and attempting to defend, that Finish hockey is more like Canadian hockey than US hockey is. The consequential jump to saying US players have less heart is particularly ignorant/offensive as it was an overarching and overreaching statement. You are entitled to your opinion, but you won't find many people who will agree with you on this point. Lets try to keep this topic on Huds, and debate international hockey elsewhere.

To me, and apparently most of the other posters in this thread, saying Finland hockey is not a sufficient way to refer to the Finnish national team. Most of the people here (and in NA as a whole) focus on the NHL more than international play. Therefore, a reference to Finnish hockey is taken into context as players in the NHL or the development leagues there. Communication is only clear if others perceive it to be. What star players did the US World Championship team have? Backstrom, Selanne, Koivu's, Hagman, Flip, etc are all top-two line players in the NHL that played in the 2010 Olympics. Finland also has some of the best goalies in the world. Please don't act like Finland has the talent of the Swiss when they are clearly superior to most of the teams at IIHF events. The US has recently made great strides in developing teams for the IIHF junior (U20, U18) events and it is showing in the results. Have you ever played organized hockey? Please don't assume that the US is not at a disadvantage when their players play in the IIHF events irregularly. The European countries (the rosters iced at non-olympic events) spend much more time playing as a team. This is an advantage, as team-work>skill when the skill difference is small. The larger ice presents a disadvantage to the players and coaches. There is a different style of play, and the adjustment period is likely longer than the few practices the NA teams have. The US has the advantage of skill on paper, but the European teams have ice-size, practice time, team-work, etc on their side. These should not be overlooked. Please do not correlate under-performance and heart. Saying that Finnish players have more heart than US players is too overarching and incorrect (ignorant). You can make specific examples (for both sides), but please refrain from these unprovable blanket statements. If you would like to continue this discussion, please feel free to PM me or start a new thread. Also, HFBoards has a section for this type of debate. http://hfboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4 I think we have derailed this topic too much with our banter. Back on topic, has Holland or Babcock signaled where Huds might play next year? Although he has 2nd line talent, I think the team would be best served with him on the third line (with PP time).