Finnish Wing

"does cleary really bring something (something worth 2.5 mil extra) to the table that eaves/miller don't?"That was the question and I think that 2,5m extra is pretty big deal.

You made my day with that comment. Who was the last? I'm not so sure. Goalie Nicklas Backstrom came here pretty late. Rafalski wasn't draftet either. Franzen was drafted but wasn't a top prospect. These are just some examples. Also, there's also something between being "excited about" and calling something "not needed". I never said I was excited about him either. Actually, I didn't even comment about him in this topic until you brought him up with that hilarious "we don't need this guy" comment. "I base all my arguments on facts." - newfy :DDD I seriously have to quote that.

I agree. It was just these your buddies who said that Colton Orr is the best enforcer in the league and can do this and that.

You are one to talk. Sjostrom is a great penalty-killer and bottom 6 player. I really see no other reason for your comments except him not being from NA. You're the one who talks about Soft Europeans all the time, not me. "Soft skilled players like Sjostrom do nothing and are the most useless hockey players". That's what you said. I'm the most follish poster? That's funny because I was just going to say the same thing about you. Seriously dude, do you even think a second before you post this stupid s***? Just line after line. Speaking about things you have no idea of. This one for example "Iflip is old and won't pan out to anything. " Pretty strong statement considering you have NEVER seen him play and you hadn't even heard about the guy few weeks ago. You're the one who posts foolish s*** all the time and you're opinions are only based on what type of player we are talking about. Everything not NA and skilled is s*** and everything NA and tough is great. Seriously. At least I try to base my statements on arguments, not just type some s*** without even knowing what I'm talking about.

"but we'll see if things change next season." Read the whole sentence, pleace.Cleary isn't worth his salary if you look at the last season. I'm confident he can play better, but he's not worth it at the moment. Yet again, you continue to amaze me with your ability to read only a small part of the post and ignore the rest. I said that Cleary could easily get +3m in other teams, but we aren't Trashers or Islanders. We are supposed to be Cup contenders and fill the cap every year. Player want to win the Cup. We can't compare our contracts to every team around the league. If you look at the other Cup contenders Cleary's contract certainly isn't "very good price".

The question was about paying Cleary 2,5m extra for that and it wasn't a stupid question at all. Not worth it, but we'll see if things change next season. And I also know that Cleary could probably get easily +3m in some other team's (like Thrashers and Islanders), but we're talking about a Stanley Cup contender here - a team which should fill up the cap every year.

If you have nothing else to offer than fighting you're basically "useless". Maybe we've dived too deep into the "useless" word. Hell, no one's totally useless. Even I could go there and just try to make myself useful by trying to confuse the opposite team from the bench with some Tiki-Talk. Maybe the right way to say it would be "not useful enough".I'm not talking only about not being available to score or skate. There are also numerous other ways to make yourself useful without fighting on the ice - on every shift. If fighting is basically the only thing you can offer then you are BASICALLY useless. Not just worth the money in nowadays NHL. It would've been different ten or twenty years ago as I said. Also, now you're saying that Colton Orr can't do anything else than fight? I'm confused here. edit: Back to the topic though. I'd take Konopka if he can play PK and 10 mins a night.

He can't be! HE'S NOT FROM NORTH AMERICA!

I've seen more Colton Orr's games than you've seen Ilari Filppula's games. I've also seen many Ilari Filppula's games.We don't need players who don't have any potential left? OK. First of all, Red Wings have numerous examples of players who reach their peak as late 20's. Second of all, GR needs offense and this player provides it. It's two-way deal and he only gets 500k. You've got basically no VALID arguments for why we shouldn't need a player like him.

How is signing a FEL playoff MVP for 500k two-way deal to GR which needs offense a mistake actually? Just because you don't like something about the player? Oh, I forgot... you know nothing about the player.Then there must be very bad players in that role, because what I've seen from him aside fighting is making himself look like a jerk taking stupid penalties. I'd say "the best enforcer" should rather be the best player who is enforcer than a enforcer who's the best fighter. If Colton Orr really is the best player among enforcer, then I'm pretty shocked.

That he avoided a mistake there. It's not like Kenny doesn't make any mistakes. Just re-signed Bertuzzi and gave media comments about re-siging Maltby. How is he the best "enforcer" exactly? Do you mean he's best because he's good at fighting or best because he's the best player of all the enforcers?

I'm talking about guys like Colton Orr who really don't add anything besides that fighting element. It would've been different ten or twenty years ago. Players like Orr are easy to ignore by opponents and they tend to take stupid penalties trying to instigate a fight, because they can't play regular hockey.As I said, if Konopka can play regular shifts, keep up the pace and kill some penalties I have nothing against it. Players like Colton Orr, Riley Cote are pretty useless. If you can't play normal competitive hockey besides fighting you don't belong in the NHL.

If he can play well besides fighting as well, then I've got nothing against it. Players who don't do anything else but fight are pretty useless nowadays.

You sound like Yoda. I just don't feel Carle is as good as everyone thinks.

Look, I'm not arguing with Bert being overpaid or anything like that. I'm just saying, you can't really prove it like that. Because you're only naming a couple examples. You have to look at every player around the same cap hit and see what kinda players they are. Or possibly look at every player around the same ppg and look what kinda salaries they have.The only argument I have, that we don't really need a player like Bert, because we now have too many top6 guys. This means either Bert playing on the 3rd line or wasting a great talent in Hudler or Filppula. I'd rather gone after some solid 3rd liner type of guy.

Wow. Even though it's only about rights, I think that's great deal for the Flyers. Seems like they like to trade with Preds (Timonen, Hartnell etc.). Lets see if Ellis is going as well... edit: This also means that either Coburn or Carle is going to be moved (providing Hamhuis signs). They'll probably move Coburn, but Carle would likely have more trade value after this "illusion season". Carle isn't really as good as it may seem, big part of it is playing with Pronger.

We already have too many top6 players.

And after that he'll go work for Versus.

Those numbers don't matter much. You gotta compare it to the other teams as well, because it's a different season.What matters is that we were 20th in GA 08-09 and 7th in GA 09-10, so yeah, that's a HUGE improvement there. It doesn't look so big when you just look at the numbers though.

I'd say it's both strenght and weakness.

No, no and once again no. The penalty should never be judged by the outcome. Although referees often make decisions based whether the player gets injured or not, is the wrong way to do it. Many times less severe contact can lead to an injury while more severe one doesn't. The high-stick penalty isn't about the outcome (=blood or no blood) either, it's about the severity - like it should be - although many referees make mistakes on that one as well.

If the players have respect for each others so that removing the instigator wouldn't lead to more stupid things happening, then why are they hitting each other in the heads in the first place? If they're hitting themselves to the head right now, I could see them as well just starting to fight someone even if the other guy wouldn't want to do it. Umm... yeah, because players obviously rather miss three games than fight. NOT.Why is it the same people wanting to remove the instigator that also strongly support fighting and enforcers. I support fighting as well. But I'm beginning to see a pattern here. Seems like most who want to remove the instigator just want more fighting for the sake of fighting, instead of trying to figure a way to prevent cheapshots.

This is a fact. And part of is it that organizations rather take the NA guy over European for the smaller roles even though they would be equal. Because of this most European players have "chosen" to take the skill road because that way they more likely get to the top. That's why European's have been labored over the years as soft and skilled. Part of that's true, but it's also misleading because only small part of the European players play in the NHL.

Yeah, that's definitely a great logic. I also bet all defensemen are using Campbell's salary as a comparison when negotiating for a contract.