Finnish Wing

Well of course those regular season injuries had some effect on our post-season performances as well.And yeah, I do agree that an enforcer would be nice. I'd want us to get a younger guy (not someone like May) who could stick around for the next years as well. But I don't think anything major is gonna happen. We probably already know our top6 forwards, our top4 d-men and our goalies. There will be some changes but they will be small. Although having one enforcer instead of none could be a big difference actually.

I think the biggest change will be having a real top6 forward rather than guys like Williams. Also, I doubt any team can win the Cup with that many injuries we had this season.

Draft only enforcers and we win the Cup.

I did watch Leino in Detroit and he sucked big time this year. Have I said he played well? No, I don't think so.How can you say one doesn't have heart at all? He maybe didn't have the drive this year here, but you honestly think he just chose to do it that way? Again, kinda weird that he CHOSES to not even try after getting that huge 800k deal here while he could've gotten almost double as that much the year earlier. Guess the NHL must be an easy league to play in then if you can put up ppg in the playoffs as a rookie with NO HEART and while at the same time being SOFT AS BUTTER! OMG! Hey btw, you could try to go play out there and we see how much heart you've got, because obviously not playing well means you're totally heartless person only after money. He was good last year while he was up here and he has been great this year's playoffs. The point is you're judging him based only on how he played badly this year in Detroit and nothing else. In other words, you're also biased because you hate him. Im judging him based on his efforts since 2002 including last year and this year's playoffs. Two things you seem to ignore. Also, he's a rookie. You could make that same argument against Howard (who sucked in the playoffs, btw). Not even noticeable? That's weird. You've probably watched some other guy then. Because these comments tell a different story. And you say he's good because he's playing on a line with HARTNELL and Briere, huh? You mean THIS Hartnell? You probably have no idea that Hartnell had gone 20 something games without a single goal before he got united with Leino. That guy was taking bad penalties and kinda floating around there like Leino did here this year. I agree that playing with Briere helps, but Briere isn't the one on that line who keeps the play alive and battles in the corners. You could as well say that Backstrom is only good because he's playing with Ovechkin. The fact is Leino is playing on the top6 and he's earned himself. You can see comments from Laviolette and Briere for more information about him. And like I said, I may be biased, but you're just as biased against him because he's an "ex-girlfriend". I doubt we would hear much negativity about him if we asked around other team's fans. The Leino you see now is closer to the real Leino than what you saw earlier this season. You can deny anything, but it doesn't change the facts. You're probably angry that Leino is still playing and all, but chill man. The trade has been steal for the Flyers already, but no need to be bitter. I get your man-hate you know, but it's blinding your ability to judge him so I can't take your posts seriously, sorry.

No, I don't actually. I kinda forgot him. fixed that

The only argument you use is that I'm biased. You probably don't even read the whole post because you can't admit being wrong in anything. I could as well say that you're biased because you hate him.It's no point trying to argue with you as you do it like children. I'm sorry, I'm not like the majority here who just give you -1 and say you're biased etc. when they can't make valid arguments.

"He will probably never become a good GM in this league."

Totally wrong. He plays on a line with Briere and Hartnell and he's been the engine of that line since they got united. Even Scott Hartnell got going once he was put on that line. If you don't want to believe your own eyes, then OK. But Leino does go to the hard areas, receives hit and he's done it since he game to the Flyers. As I said, once he started doing all that the points came after a little while. He's been many times in front of the net doing dirty work even when he has not gotten points out of it.Lack of heart? Do you have a heart-o-meter back there or how did you measure his lack of heart? To me saying that someone doesn't have the heart means that someone doesn't even want to get it done. Kinda weird if he just chose to not work for it after first playing a season down in the AHL to even get a chance to play up here rather than going to the KHL for the big cash. Although, I doubt you even really ever "pulled for him". You HOPE he doesn't turn into anything because of two reasons: a) he didn't get it done here and the trade would look too bad (although the trade is a steal already) b) you predicted that he won't even be an NHL player in the future. You've basically seen him play bad not even a full season and you somehow THINK that he will never turn into anything, though at same time he's leading the scoring among rookies in the playoffs. Fringe NHLer AT BEST? Wow, last time he wasn't even an NHLer. Guess, things we changed. You don't even believe that prediction yourself. Also, I could predict that some star player is just on a hot streak and he suddenly drops out of the NHL without any arguments to back it up. The fact is you don't even know what kinda player the normal Ville Leino is. He proved last year and this post-season that he can play well on this level. He's still a ROOKIE playing his first full year in the NHL, much like Jimmy Howard who is also 25. He's still the best player ever send to the minors and a late bloomer according to Mike Babcock. The thing is you can't really make predictions like that. Or you can, but no one really has any reasons to believe them.

Hahah, so wrong. You think a player who would work through AHL to be an NHL player at the age of 25 (instead of going to KHL to get paid big time) CHOSE to not work anymore? You know how stupid that even sounds? You all think it was the reason for everything that he didn't work hard or was lazy. It wasn't the reason. It was the result. The actual reason was losing all confidence.I blame Holland in the first place for trying to replace the missing scoring by getting Leino and Williams rather than either Hudler or Samuelsson. Leino and Williams weren't top6 guys for sure at the start of the season and Kenny knew it. Then came all the injuries and worst-case scenario happened. Guys like those two had to step up while they wasn't ready for it. You should understand that you don't start working just by snapping your fingers. The loss of confidence is obviously the biggest reason for Leino sucking here and change of scenery fixed that like it many times does. You get a new fresh start. Some of you just don't wanna believe it. It's like you're blaming Leino for us having a bad season or something. I ask it again: is it Campbell's fault that he's way overpaid? Or the GM's? He hasn't floated around for a single game this post season (although I doubt you've even watched a single game). He was doing all the little things right before the points even started to come. And he's continued doing them. He skates, he fights in the corners, does back-checking and once in a while even hits someone.

Do you even know what a complete player means? If this organization would have only complete players it would be over the cap by far. You pay for offense and you pay for defense. Hudler is a guy that has great offense and we will put him on the top6. No need to pay extra money to get a guy who can play PK too, as we already have them. Helm isn't a complete player. Abdelkader isn't a complete player. Cleary isn't a complete player. Holmstrom isn't a complete player. The list goes on and on.If you guys have even watched a single game for Philly this post-season, you'd know that Leino has done much dirty work for that line. It's a different thing then if you don't even wanna believe what you see.

F: Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Hudler, Filppula, Franzen, Abdelkader, Helm, Cleary, Eaves, Draper, "3rd liner" + Ritola and maybe Miller D: Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Kronwall, Kindl, Ericsson + Lilja G: Howard, Osgood

Now that I think about it, I'd also like the Flyers to win because of Timonen. The guy has been around for some time and has been one of the greatest Finnish d-men. I think he deserves it.

What does it matter? It's the same thing for both teams.

Finland's Junior system has produced (and still does) a lot of good team players with the cost of goal-scoring and game breaking abilities. There's always coming great workers that have good physical attributes, but scorers like Selanne and Kurri are too rare. It's the same thing in soccer too. Many good defenders, but not a lot of real scorers. I personally think it has a lot to do with the culture. Finland has always been either unders Russia's or Sweden's control. There hasn't yet been even 100 years of independent nation. That's one of the main reasons Finns are always rather "defending" than "attacking". Althoug you could say the same thing about Czechs or Slovaks for example. But then you also have to see the cultural differences. The people in Central, Souther and Eastern Europe are much more "positive" in a way. They talk alot more and are generally more open. It seems like Finns get their mouths open only after few beers.

I was comparing Team Finland with Team USA. I've also said a number of times that it's much harder for players outside North America to get in to the NHL if they're not skilled. There are always more players who can play tough and work hard, but those skilled guys are more rare. That's why many European players go with the skill road. And that's also why I don't need to compare only NHL players in this case.You honestly think that junior league like WHL can be even compared with Finnish Elite League? It's a men's league. You haven't probably watched a single game of Finnish league. I've watched these junior hockey league games and I can tell you it's basically just rushing after rushing. Toni Rajala had like 5 points last year in FEL and this year he's been over ppg in WHL. FEL is the 3rd toughest league in the World and it's definitely more hard working than any of those junior leagues. This doesn't have anything to do with the Finnish style of play which I was first talking about. You don't consider Koivu bros players with a lot of heart. OK, that's your opinion. You could ask around any NHLer and I think they wouldn't agree with you. And like I said about 21242 times already, I was comparing Team Finland and Team USA. I can just tell you that Team USA never shows the kind of heart and working hard that Team Finland does. Nothing personal though. There are many good American players, great checkers who play hard etc. Americans just don't rate hockey as high as Finns do. The fact that there are 300 million people living in USA versus 5 million people living in Finland should give USA the clear advantage in EVERY situation, but for some reason it doesn't. They've got much greater talent and the individual stars dominate the NHL unlike Finnish players (other than goalies). It just shows when you see Team USA play, that they don't have the drive like some other countries do. If the guys have so much heart why is it that they can only show it when they're getting paid playing for their clubs? Why can't they show that heart and work ethic in international games where it's not about the money? Canada and USA are GENERALLY much(?) harder workers than European players. Generally they are, I agree. However that doesn't mean USA is more hard working than Finland for example. You should understand that there are many different countries in Europe with hockey being totally different in some of them. You do realize that there are only two countries in the World where hockey is the biggest sport, and Finland is one of them. To say that Finland plays just like Czech Rep. because they're both Europeans is pretty stupid. Russia has soccer, Sweden has soccer, Czech Rep. has soccer, USA has baseball etc. Again, this whole conversation started as you claimed that there's only European hockey and North American hockey. To say that there's as much difference between French-Canadian and Canadian hockey than Finnish and Czech hockey is pretty idiotic. How many games of different European league games have you seen? I can say that I've seen a LOT of FEL games, many SEL games, some KHL games and even some Swiss and Czech league games. But then I've also seen a lot of NHL games and international games (EHT, WC, Olympics). You really think you're in the position here to make arguments like that when you have probably seen - besides NHL games - only some international games? I still think Team Finland plays more Canadian type hockey than Team USA. I think the main reason for that is the love for the sport. It's not as big in USA than in Finland. Hockey is bigger thing for Finns. You can have you're opinions, but - much like many other Americans (or Canadians) - you haven't really seen how the things are outside your country and outside your league.

Geez. I guess that -7 (keep 'em coming!) for one post is a new record or something. At least now I know which strings to pull if I wanna be a successful troll around here.

Had this been a Finnish hockey forum, I think there would be most people agreeing with what I said. I'm sorry. Hockey just isn't as big there as it is in here. Hockey doesn't mean as nearly as much to Americans as it means to Finns.

That's mostly because there are more American than Finnish people on this planet.I can say I haven't dugged any holes recently. If you've watched international games for the last 20 years you'd see that USA have played no where near to where they should when you look at the material and the biggest reason have been lack of working hard enough. Anyway, that first post was a reply to a post which said that "there is only European and North American" hockey - meaning that hockey in Finland and hockey in Czech Rep. is all basically same - which is total bulls***. Team USA doesn't play as well as a team as Team Finland does and they don't defend as good as Team Finland does. USA is only 6th at the world rankings (Finland being 4th and 3rd before the latest tournament). Their material is top3 however. What is the biggest reason for playing under expectations if it's not working hard enough? Size of the rink? International rules? Bad luck? Those sound more like excuses to me. Many times I see the Team USA play they remind me of the good ol' times when they used to just come to WC to have a nice vacation in Europe. It just somehow shows that hockey isn't as big there as it is in Finland or Canada. To me it's lack of heart.

Did I say "Finland hockey"? No. I said Finland and USA.If I say Finland plays like this and USA plays like that and Germany plays like that how am I not referring to the national teams? To what am I referring then? I think the international games show perfectly what kinda identities different countries have. Czechs don't play like Canada in the international games because they've got different type of players. It may change slightly when the players or coach change, but the identity stays there still. Finland has always have much common with Canada in their style of play. Please don't act like Saku Koivu or Niklas Hagman is a STAR. You obviously know that USA has much better material on the paper. There's no need to even argue that. Hagman and Saku Koivu wouldn't even make the USA team. I doubt Selanne would either. Also, like I said there can only be one goalie in the net at a time so having depth there won't help much in international tournaments. How has team Finland any more time to practice than Team USA? Anyway, to blame the ice-size is ******* ridiculous. You lose to Germany and Denmark and go to the qualifying games with the best material of the group. Of course the ice-size matters but it doesn't matter much at all when looking at the big picture. If we compare Team Finland and Team USA the ice-size is pretty small advantage when you think about the material of Team USA. And no matter how big the ice is, it's pretty pathetic that Team USA is qualifying. "So you're saying that guys like Mikko Koivu, Saku Koivu, Tuomo Ruutu and Teemu Selanne have less heart than Brett Lebda?" You know that in that sentence by "Finnish players" I meant "players of Team Finland". I can't find any other major reason for Finland playing better than USA in international games for the past years than working hard and having more heart.I'd also like to add that there are only TWO countries in the world where ice-hockey is the number one sport. The other is Canada...

Haha. So Olli Jokinen is the basic Finnish player in your opinion? You're so frikin stupid that it's not worth the time to even try to argue with you.Koivu bros have more heart than all those players. The fact is that if you've ever even watched Team USA and Team Finland play, you'd know that Finland plays with more heart and works harder.

Then you must be blind, because it's right at the top of this page. "Then I don't know how you determine the types, because for example Finland plays more Canadian type hockey than USA." If that isn't discussing national teams, then I don't know what it is?Why should we compare only Olympic results? I think it shows a lot of heart when you go playing in the WC to represent your country. Finland has as well some players in the playoffs still playing just like USA - just on a smaller scale. It doesn't really change the big picture at all. We saw it this year's WC again. USA lost to both Denmark and Germany and was the last of the group and had to go on the qualifying stage. I think it showed that they were not willing to work as hard as the other teams and their superior material didn't help them because weren't willing to do so. Also, you seriously think that ice advantage has anything to do with Finland having better results than USA? Best Finnish players play in the NHL as well. USA has still always had better material. It's ridicolous to use excuses like ice-size or more time to gel while USA has had a superior roster on the paper. How many star players have Finland had in the past years? Goaltending has always been good, but there can only be one goalie on the ice at a time. Teemu Selanne isn't a star anymore. Mikko Koivu isn't a star yet. We don't have guys like Kane or Parise (and rarely had in the past either).

This was the post I replied to. Are most of you people actually so lazy that you can't look at the previous page? Or do you actually belive that North American vs. European s***?What have been Team Finland's strenghts for the past 20 years? We've had barely any big time scorers or game-breakers. USA, Canada, Slovakia, Czech Rep., Russia... they've all had plenty of those kinda players - great individuals. Yet Team Finland has performed at the same level (sometimes higher) than these teams. You think it has all been goaltending or what? Do you seriously think that Team USA has worked harder and played with more heart? Then why hadn't they had that kinda success despite always possessing a strong team?

LOL. I was comparing Team Finland's playing style with Team USA and Team Canada. How does it have anything to do with those individual players you are naming? Learn to read people. USA have always had much more skilled players than Team Finland. We have never been amongst the favourites, yet we have been able to win the most olympic medals since -88. Working hard and working together has always been the label of Team Finland. Did I say Team USA doesn't have any heart or what?I was comparing Team Finland's playing style with Team USA. Team Finland plays more like Team Canada than Team USA does. Please read through the other arguments instead of just replying to one post. Please read through the whole conversation before posting a stupid reply regarding one post. We were talking about Team Finland, Team USA and Team Canada. Understand? Doesn't have s*** to do with the players you've played against in your childhood. First of all, those are Canadian players you're naming. Learn to read (also, learn to write). Did I say someone has "no heart"? No, I don't think so.How does one player like OJ or Leino being something anything to do with Team Finland's style of play? Just an all around iditoc reply by you. So much fail in that post that I'm not gonna even comment any further about it. Team USA have always had much more skill than Team Finland. Yet somehow Team Finland has had about equal or better results for the past twenty years. We've never had any real scorers or stars. Team Finland has always been about working hard together.Also, you do understand that there are over 300 million people living in the United States. There are 5 million people living in Finland. Finland has more NHL players per capita than USA.