Finnish Wing

Yup, it's almost so late it's EARLY!

You weren't in that occasion.

It's sure is nice to make judgements about player based on what he has said to the media in Finglish language.

Depends on who's coaching that second team. Maybe only slightly. We've never had any star players and nowhere near the best players either. Still, been able to get some good results. That's because having a good playing style and every player in the team executing that style of play perfectly.

Or maybe players actually want to play in near their home countries. NHL wouldn't be much without European players.

Wrong. I'm sorry. It's impossible to continue this discussion. Miller can stay. May will go down or be gone.

Frolov-Datsyuk-Cleary Zetterberg-Filppula-Franzen Abdelkader-Helm-Eaves Miller-Draper-TOUGHGUY + Leino, "Maltby" Lidstrom-Kronwall Stuart-Rafalski Kindl-Ericsson + Meech/Janik Howard Osgood Lidstrom will play for one more year and after that we'll get Doughty.

I honestly think that the bashing wouldn't be nearly as bad if people would've had realistic expectations for the guy. I'm not saying he's been good enough to even match the realistic expectations, but for some people to really expect 20 goal 40 point season was... I'm still saying that I don't expect him to be a top6 player this season or even a regular guy in the lineup, but in the long run he's much better choice than May. This is not anti-enforcing here. It's just because we know that Maltby won't be going and Miller shouldn't be going either. May is not really a Red Wing any more than Leino is, except Leino's been here longer and has a contract for next year also. Even if May wasn't an enforcer I'd say he should be the forward to go. I just rather pick a guy that still has potential over a guy that's a 4th liner and getting worse with age.

You can say what you wan't, but as usually you don't really explain your arguments that well. You can have your opinions, but I'm glad they're not facts. To say he's not EVEN an NHL caliber player is just wrong. IMO NHL caliber player, for forward, means that you're in the top 360 (or 390 if 13th forwards are counted).

Is Lebda's shot hard enough to broke something like that?

It certainly is easy to use "my biased opinions" as a counter-argument against my every argument. I don't even have it going. IMO Leino and Miller are two players who are fairly equally good with the difference of Miller being better defensively and Leino being better offensively. I wan't to see them both compare for that spot in the line with Filppula and Williams. Miller was claimed through waivers and Leino already has a contract for next year and Leino's been here longer, that's the difference. It's nice that you can guarantee something like that since that line was on fire in the early season with Leino on it. I wouldn't guarantee anything before I've seen Miller in that line.

Err, what? Babcock's said it was our best line, so did many people here. Even without having any issues, you could tell that it was clearly our best line. Williams played well before he got injured, just like Leino. We'll just see how he plays in the future, but I do hope he'll continue from where he left. He gets 1,5k so it's possible he could be traded if he doesn't get it going again after the injury. And there's no question that you've got some May issues. Even with the issues, I think you'd know that he won't be in the regular lineup once people are healthy.

That early season were Leino-Filppula-Williams was our best line and Draper-Helm-Eaves didn't excist. Now that it does and is working, there's no room for May in the actual lineup. Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi Franzen-Zetterberg-Cleary Leino/Miller-Filppula-Williams Draper-Helm-Eaves

Abdelkader is definitely going down. May, Miller and Williams don't have anything guaranteed. I accept the fact that Leino could be gone and that he's one of those players. But I'm not going to discuss with you anymore if you think Miller, May, Abdelkader and Williams are all guaranteed. You expect us to go to the post season with only 6 defenseman, as your logic would be dumping Leino, Meech and Lebda?

Hahaha . No matter what? I said that in two occasions: Helm and Holmstrom. Read the title, "Who are the THREE odd men out?" You really think Helm or Holmstrom can be even discussed in this thread? I don't. May, Miller, Abdelkader, Maltby, Williams, Draper. Those are the forwards I would compare with Leino in this thread.

I mentioned Helm before only because he's the player that seems to be above critic no matter what he does. But Helm is definitely staying up so I think we shouldn't compare him to Leino in this thread.

- As said many times before, we don't have room for May in the lineup if Babcock builds the lines like he did in the early season when everyone is healthy again. Leino-Filppula-Williams was our 3rd line and also in many games our best one. Not very defensive 3rd line, but that's fits well with Babcock's playing style. - Holmstrom get's about 1,5 million more than Leino does. Holmstrom has been in the NHL since -96. Holmstrom's is a totally different type of player than Leino is. Holmstrom has already maxed he's potential. I think it's pretty stupid to compare Leino to Holmstrom.

- He provides more offense than May and will definitely provide even more in the future. He was good at the start of the season, why couldnt he play like that again? - Some players max up their potential at a older age, and I think as a Red Wings fan you should definitely know it. - Leino has much better hands and better puck control. Falling over doesnt mean a player sucks. Helm's fallen over a number of times. - I can't go inside Babcock's head, but I know that the Red Wings way, as an organization, has always been patience. Grigorenko and Ryno went back because they themselves wanted to.

Of course you did, but that's not a stat. Why didn't you just post that right away then?

I kinda think the opposite. Because these injuries we've been playing like some Minnesota. Playing defensive and trying not to concede goals rather than scoring them. Once we get the full healthy roster, our game is back to normal, just like at the start of thes season. You can't play Babcock's hockey with grinders playing in top lines.

Yeah, I think it's easier to keep playing May in the 4th line because you know what you'll get. My arguments for keeping Leino: - We need a more offensive substitute forward, Miller/Leino - Leino is better choice than May when you also look to the future (hard to argue against that one); he has a 2 year contract at 800k/year and has the potential to be an ok 2nd liner (or 3rd liner in this team) - Babcock's hockey is about puck control, passing and actually PLAYING the game rather than hitting and punching everything that moves, so you need guys that can do that - Babcock's been saying good things about Leino earlier and they've developed him 2 years, they won't get rid of him just like that

At least I can explain my arguments, unlike many other guys here. "ENFORCER! YARR! WANT GOALS! NO! LEINO YOU SUCK! HELM WITH DATSYUK! KILL! ******* OSGOOD!"

I would have no problem admitting it if that was really the case. Fortunately, it's not. By "over here" you probably mean the Red Wings, because that can be possible.

Miller played over 14 minutes tonight and did not register a shot on goal. Abdalkader played over 13 minutes tonight and did not register a shot on goal. Draper played over 10 minutes tonight and did not register a shot on goal. Maltby played over 12 minutes tonight and did not register a shot on goal.

The only reason I "hate" Brad May is because people here think choosing May over Leino is better for this team future and present combined, while it certainly isn't.