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Boll establishes himself early in the game all up in Datsyuk's face, Avery was big for NY the other night, Montreal vs Boston features some tough guy chess work with Laraque out on early shifts against Lucic and Chara. But hey, nobody plays fighters in the playoffs. They're not important. esteef

Steps: 1. Print and cut out both images. 2. Stuff with shredded paper. 3. Staple together. 4. Poke with needles on gameday, especially during shots from the point. (note: Ignore the fact that Theodore is left handed.) Enjoy! esteef

Outta nowhere! esteef

The only reason I brought up the Cups was because some here are certain the new finesse style produces results/wins/success, and to that I say what "success"? Where are the Cups Detroit has won without the fighting element on the team? There ARE none. The utter dismissal of the fighting element and it's importance to "winning" is where I have issue. There's nothing wrong with trying to constantly improve the team, regardless of how successful they've been or not, and that's all anyone here is saying with regard to the fighting aspect. I believe the Wings could've won more Cups if the fighting/toughness element had been better addressed during certain Wings playoff campaigns. That's all I'm saying. I'm not spoiled, I understand the Wings are good. esteef

They didn't, and the poster knew what I meant and wasn't so literal about it. Point was, they bounced the Wings out of the playoffs, and not with "skill". So, it's not possible that a player such as Chris Neil would've helped us win more Cups? Please look into your crystal ball and elaborate. No one said they were not satisfied with current results, only that the results could've been better, especially when all we hear is how awesome this fighter-less style of play is (with no Cup results to show for it). But please continue wuith your ridiculous "Waaah" rant as you seem to not have anything relevant to the actual points made. esteef

Bingo. But careful, you'll be accused of making "little sense". sidenote: It's funny how little Shanny's name comes up in these discussions. A legitimate fighter AND scorer. Hell Detroit had so many "fighters" they couldn't even fit them all on the 4th line! esteef

Did Downey play last year? How about Drake? Did we "win"? esteef

No, saying fighting/toughness is not important in the playoffs and that finesse and skill are all you need to win Cups even though there are 0 examples of this in the Wings franchise is what's outrageous. Balance is what's key here, balance between all those things you listed, but some people here have a very hard time giving any kind of credence to "tough" players, whether they are suited up for the playoffs or not. esteef

So the pilosophy is great and shows results except when people actually want to see the results? Then it's "well you can't win every year, there's parity blah blah blah"? The only Cups Detroit won had fighters on the team during the reg season AND playoffs. Where is the example of this awesome finesse style winning a Cup without one? Who cares if no one has had as much success, the way people here talk, this style of play should have brought us more than 4 Cups in the last 15 years. And yes the Ducks only have one Cup because they aren't balanced like they were with the Cup winning team, like what a lot of people have been saying here. They had finesse AND fighting, like the Cup winning Wings teams, that's the point. (I didn't forget LA, I didn't think I needed to list EVERY example). So what exactly does "out-hustled and out-matched" mean? Physically pushed around perhaps? esteef

So if Detroit doesn't need to fight to win, and folks always try to claim that "fighters" don't play in the playoffs (even though Drake, McCarty both played last year), then why doesn't Detroit have more Cups in the last 10-15 years? Did other teams "out-skill" or "out-finesse" the Wings in the playoffs? Did Anaheim out-skill the Wings on their way to the Cup? Did Edmonton? Did Calgary? All I hear every game is how great the Wings org is from owner down to the stacked-with-talent lineups year after year. If that's so true and they've built this model franchise and style of play, why don't they have more Cups to show for it? I mean, if finesse and skill are all you need, where's the hardware? From what I can see, the years they did win it all, they absolutely had the fighter/tough guy element. Articles like this are interesting reads, but in my opinion, not entirely accurate. esteef

Dan O'Halloran should die of gonorreah and rot in hell! esteef

That's what I'm talkin' about. It ain't all fun and bracelets! esteef

Wondering why Holland didn't mention Leino as one of the "good kids down in Grand Rapids"? esteef

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Wait, I thought the ladies weren't shaving their armpits? esteef

YEE-HAW!! esteef

Butt kisser!

Exactly. He did play well tonight against the Sabres though so let's see if he can "keep 'er goin'"! esteef

He is good. esteef

Ozzie was great tonight! How about making it a habit! esteef

O.K. So we'll all just look to Shoreline for when and where we're allowed to criticize the team. Opinions differ all the time, if some people want to wait until we're actually eliminated to say something that's their perrogative, not a mandate. If Ozzie cleans his game up then I'm sure the sentiment will change, but until then, he's got some cleaning to do, and fast. esteef

Agree. Too bad there are too many other Ozzie threads going on because some people on here need to read this post. esteef