Scott Stevens

Crysmon, You're gripping because you know we need a big body on that top line with Z, and if Franzen can't provide that, then we really don't have much hope in the playoffs. Just take a deep breath and rethink this one. You'll see that the point I'm trying to make is that Franzen is key to our success and has to show up.

2nd on Ericsson. 100 mph shot and no pp time? Come on Babs.

So you're saying he's injury prone? What good does that do us? FACE IT - Franzen isn't helping us beat the Sharks. And we need someone who can.

Not on the third line, he couldn't. Nobody could on the third line. Are you just going to totally IGNORE ice-time and line-mates as a factor in point production? Let's take a look at the 08 and 09 playoffs since both players are in those seasons. 08: Franzen, 18 points in 16 games with 18:49 average ice time and 1st line players = .06 points per minute. Hudler, 14 points in 22 games with 11:35 average ice time and 3rd line players = .055 points per minute. 09: Franzen, 23 points in 23 games with 19:40 average ice time and 1st line players = .050 points per minute. Hudler, 12 points in 23 games with 13:27 average ice time and 3rd line players = .039 points per minute. I really do believe that if Hudler had been playing with Zetterberg and Franzen had been playing with Filppula during those playoff runs, Hudler's numbers would be better than Franzen's. However, I also believe we wouldn't have won in 08 if that were true. Hudler is not better than Franzen. That's not my argument. Hudler is a good third liner and everybody should realize this. That's my argument.

Agreed. This isn't the 1940's. There are doctors for a reason.

And THIS is where I'm in total agreement with you! Franzen is NOT Mario Lemieux. Franzen plays with this Zetterberg and Cleary and sees about 4 minutes more ice time per game. Hudler plays with Filppula and Abdelkader. Noone should have any problems making a connection as to why Hudler has lower point production than Franzen. Is Hudler better than Franzen? I don't think so. I'm not questioning Hudler or Franzen's placement on the depth chart. I'm questioning the LGW posters' ability to recognize the probable/acceptable point production that should come out of someone's placement on the depth chart. Hudler putting up 40-50 points on the third line is WHAT HE SHOULD DO!!!

Crymson, We needed Franzen to be there and pick up his game to get us over the hump the last two seasons when playing the Sharks. He no-showed for the most part. That's all I'm saying. Overall, Franzen has been great. I like the Mule. I just think Hudler's numbers would be similar if he had similar ice time and line-mates. Hudler is a gifted hockey player. Trying to deny that is just silly.

Agreed. The Mule has been pretty solid with the exception of a couple swings over the years.

This is closer to reality. He hasn't been all that dominant against the Sharks. I guess that's why I'm a little sour on Franzen right now. He lights it up against the Coyotes and for one meaningless game against the Sharks, but he's been invisible all the other games against the Sharks. We need Franzen to be the 08-09 playoff Franzen when we play the Sharks. Not the 2010-2011 playoff Franzen.

Franzen works hard. Come on. He might have had a bad stretch of games, but come on. Look at his production the last 5 seasons. He's been solid. I'm only agreeing with you that Hudler can put up points with Dats or Zetterberg centering his line. I'm not agreeing with you on Franzen's motivation or work ethic.

Franzen isn't lazy! Ha ha ha. I don't even think he's inconsistent. I think he's just slower and less agile than a Gary Roberts type player. That's why he needs a slick center to draw the defensemen away from his shooting lanes.

Eva, Another thing to remember is that Franzen had 2 huge games over the last 2 playoff seasons. He was epic in 08 and 09. I will give that to Franzen. He was a beast and a large part of our cup/finals success. But 10 and 11 were MISERABLE for Franzen, outside of a couple games. He has been invisible for the most part over the last 2 years in the playoffs. I'm not trying to turn this into a hate on Franzen topic, but I am going to call it like I see it. Fedorov was a consistent playoff performer for the Red Wings. He was never hurt and never disappeared. Franzen = hurt and disappears the last 2 years.

Wrong Again, Buster! I like Cleary a lot. If it were up to me, I'd have it look like this when everyone healthy: Cleary-Datsyuk-Helm Franzen-Zetterberg-Filppula Mursak-Abdelkader-Hudler Miller-Eaves-Tatar/Emmerton/Brunnstrom I like young and fast. I don't like old and slow.

That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Johan Franzen is NOT Alexander Ovechkin. No way Franzen goes over 40 points a season without Zetterberg and/or Datsyuk. No way. He's an average skater at best and he doesn't crash the net. He's a perimeter player that needs someone like Datsyuk or Zetterberg to open the ice up for him. Cleary, Filppula, Helm, and Abdelkader do not fall into that category. All of those guys can open up ice by themselves. Franzen, Bertuzzi, and Holmstrom cannot. If Hudler plays with Datsyuk all year long and neither of them are hurt for extended periods, anything shy of 60 points from Hudler would be a failure in my opinion. Anything above 70 points would be a successful campaign for Happy.

I think what everyone forgets is that there is an equation that should be used when assessing the NET value of a winger for Datsyuk or Zetterberg. X + Z = X + AC +20 Player + Zetterberg (or Datsyuk) = Player + Average Center + 20 points So if Hudler scores 65 points this year playing all year with Datsyuk, it would be quite foolish to say "Well now he deserves 5 million a season since he scored 20 more points than last year". If Hudler scores 90 points this season, the conversation is a lot different. I'm not saying any of us would look good out there with Datsyuk, but I know he can make any NHLer look good.

Ha Ha Ha. Not really. I just like the nickname you chose. It will be cool to see who gets the other A when Lidstrom does retire in 5 years. Kronwall probably.

Knuckle Sandwich!

Do you think Hudler should wear the "A" when Lidstrom retires and Z gets the "C"?

Wrong. That team would make a deep push and might even take the cup. The old, broken down guys (Rafalski, Bertuzzi, Holmstrom, Draper, Maltby, etc) that the Wings have kept around too long are the reason we can't get by the Sharks/Canucks right now. We need more speed, size, and youth in our line-up. Why everyone is afraid to add the young, fast guys is beyond me.

Lidstrom - 5.5 mil Kronwall - 5.5 mil Stuart - SIONARA Commodore - SIONARA Bertuzzi - SIONARA Holmstrom - SIONARA Hudler - SIONARA Abdelkader - 1.5 mil Helm - 2 mil Conklin - 1 mil Franzen - Zetterberg - Boyes Cleary - Datsyuk - Grabovski Mursak - Filppula - Tatar Abdelkader - Helm - Eaves Miller - Emmerton Lidstrom - White Kronwall - Kindl Smith - Ericsson Janik Howard Conklin

On any other team, Flip is A LOT more than a third line center. On the Wings, he is a third line center. He is NOT better than Datsyuk, and he is not better than Zetterberg. Filppula is AWESOME, imo. I just don't think he's a Euro Triplet yet!!!

Well, he's been called the Demolition Man and has been given 1st unit power play time for the last 10 years. While I'll admit that Holmstrom has some rare skills in front of the net that a lot of other players do not possess, I won't admit that those skills are more valueable than having a guy who can rifle shots into the corners from the high slot on the power play. The Red Wings make a lot of sacrifices on their power play to have Holmstrom standing up in front of the goalie exclusively.

Why do you feel this way? We've got 4 of our top 6 locked up long term, 10 mil in cap space right now, and 4 more opening up with the departure of Bertuzzi/Holmstrom. Sure, we've got Lidstrom/Helm/Kronwall to resign, but this shouldn't chew up 20 million. I don't want to see Huds or Filps on the top two lines. They are third line players. The problem with all the Huds/Filps bashing lies in the fact that people seem to think they are 1st liners. Why can't we grab 2 UFA's for 4-5 mil a piece in the off season? Say Boyes and Grabovski.

The NHL should be running ads showing empty basketball courts and then flashing to filled hockey arenas with roaring fans. Why isn't there a "Watch Us" campaign right now? In my opinion, the NHL does the WORST job out of any professional sport marketing itself. You're more likely to see an ad for premier league soccer than one for the NHL. Right now is a perfect time for the NHL to get a lot of new fans, and instead, they're focusing on Brendan Shanahan handing out 35 suspensions a week. Bad move if you ask me.

Trade Filppula, Bertuzzi, Helm, Hudler, Mursak, Tatar, Abdelkader, Cleary, Miller, and Eaves since they don't score 60+ points a season. Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom Holmstrom-Zetterberg-Cleary Cleary-Datsyuk-Franzen Franzen-Cleary-Datsyuk That's how our 4 lines should look. pshhhh Why is everyone so hell bent on holding our third line players to 1st line standards? Cleary-Datsyuk-(Insert Player Worth His While) Franzen-Zetterberg-(Insert Player Worth His While) Hudler-Filppula-Abdelkader Eaves-Helm-Mursak We need two players. If we fill in the blanks with some good players once this season's over, Filppula and Hudler talks should go away.