therock48880

Yes, I'm still sure he's overrated in the sense that no matter how good he is, he can't live up to the hype. Plus, and this is admitted by numerous posters on letsgopens.com, Crosby wasn't even the Pens best player last year, Malkin was. And yet, he gets all of the accolades and hype. It's ridiculous that a player that one dimensional has so much hype.

He's a great young player, no doubt. However, I too, would put him in the overrated category right now. Yes, he's a phenomenal playmaker and offensive threat. However, that's where his game ends. He doesn't play defense and I can't get the image of him running off the ice every time Zetterberg stepped on the ice in Pitt. out of my mind. Plus, watching him sit helplessly on the bench during the pk and his inability to win important faceoffs hurt him and the team. Yet, if you listen to the hockey "experts" this guy can do everything. He can't. (yet) I compare him to Lebron James. Great, young, offensive talent. But in terms of all-around play, I'd take Kobe. Crosby is young and I assume he will learn how to win faceoffs and play defense. But right now, with all the hype he gets, he's overrated and WAY overexposed. Even though I am saying he's overrated, he's still great, though. But to listen to everyone talk about the guy, you'd think he invented the game of hockey. He's exciting and fun to watch, but has holes in his game that should be addressed in order to become a complete player. And, yes, I'd love to have him on the Wings.

Perfectly stated. It's not that I don't think Feds is worthy of having his number retired. It's his relationship with mgt and the way the fans felt about him after her left that will keep him from going to the rafters. I mean, the guy is STILL booed at the Joe. I don't think the reception from the fans would be favorable if they tried to hold a retirement ceremony for him.

Where did I say he played half his career as a d-man? He played approximately one half of his games during his tenure with Columbus on D. So, he played one full season in Anaheim, netted 31 goals, then was traded to Columbus where he alternated between defenseman and center and played for Ken Hithcock. (if you don't think playing for Hitchcock can have an adverse affect on someone, maybe you should read some of Brett Hull's comments about him)

Sammy hasn't played Defense for half of his games.

31 goals is not an incredible decline, imo.

I didn't think we were discussing why he left, I thought we were talking about his decline in stats. The difference between the trap and the left wing lock is that the left wing stays in a defensive position. It doesn't have much affect on centers. In a true trap, it's the center who is forced into a more defensive role. Similar systems, you're right, but since Feds was a center, the change from the left wing lock to the trap would have had a detrimental impact on him. I also disagree with your statement that he hasn't produced since he left Detroit. There's this belief that he completely quit scoring as soon as he left the Wings. In his first year in Anaheim, despite a horrible start by him and the team, and a totally different system, he had 31 goals. His most notable drop came in assists which he only registered 34. I'm assuming that drop could be attributed to not having Shanahan on his wing. The next year he was traded to Columbus where he spent about half of his games played playing defense and battled some nagging injuries. Additionally, Fedorov was a complete player and points are not the only thing that determines how effective he was.

No, that's where the difference of opinion is happening. He got his minutes, yes, but it was in a defense-first system. You have to realize that playing in a trapping system can have a negative effect on an offensive players stats.

He certainly was while in Anaheim. The Ducks were committed to trapping and played games just like the Devils did. He wanted to win games 2-1. He's not as restrictive now, but back then he was much worse than Scotty. I would say the same thing about Ken Hitchcock.

I find the Fedorov dispute to be interesting. I think people are still bitter that he left Detroit for essentially less money. Comparing him to Datsyuk is difficult because their styles are different. I'd give Datsyuk the edge in puckhandling and shiftiness on the ice but that's it. (and I love Datsyuk). Everything else, Fedorov was better. I don't even see how this conversation is still going. I guess many around lgw have very short memories or something, leaving Vladdy off the lists, downplaying Fedorov's importance, etc... I had Lidstrom 1 and Yzerman 2 but seriously debated whether to put Fedorov at 2. I think people let their personal feelings get in the way or something.

So, make the list smaller. Is Joe D in the top 5 pistons in the past 15 years? Is Barry in the top 3 of the past 15 years? I answer yes to both. It all comes down to longevity I suppose. Some people (myself included) say Gayle Sayers was one of the best RB's of all time, even though he didn't play long. Others say he isn't because he didn't play long enough. Leaving Vladdy off the list of top players just seems insane to me. Scotty even said after the 95-96 season that Vladdy was the best hockey player in the world. I just think people forget how completely dominating Vladdy was, which is too bad, because he was awesome.

So, if you were asked to name the top 10 Pistons in the past 15 years, would Joe D. make your list? Of, if you were asked to name the top 10 Lions in the past 15 years, would Barry make your list? Here's why I ask: Joe D. played in 7 out of the past 15 years Barry played in 6 out of the past 15 years Vladdy played in 6 out of the past 15 years Vladdy was as instrumental to the first Cup run as almost any Wing. His suffocating defense was one of the main reasons the Wings made it to the finals. He immediately stepped on the ice every time the opponents top offensive line was out there and he SHUT THEM DOWN. His fierce, take no prisoners attitude rubbed off on everyone else, he was never out of position, he had good hands, and he had a decent shot (that he didn't use enough). Without Vladdy, they don't win the first Cup, imo.

Yzerman was unbelievable in that series. The interesting thing to watch on a number of the Wing's goals in that series is that Yzerman was usually parked right in front of Cloutier. He had one good leg, couldn't skate well, so he just went down low, took a beating, and opened things up for others to score.

Some very interesting lists so far. If we're talking about the last 15 years, that would take us to 93. Since Yzerman hasn't played all of the 15 years, I think that may give Lidstrom the nod at number 1. Then I'd go with Yzerman followed by Fedorov. It cracks me up that some people are putting him so low. I've been watching old Wing's games and he was absolutely dominant. Even in the 02 Cup run it's possible the Wings don't beat Vancouver without Fedorov's contributions. But I think the most amazing thing of all that I have seen on these lists is the omission of Vladdy. For 6 seasons he was the most dominant d-man the Wings had. The guy was a PLUS 60 in 1996. So, here's my list: 1. Lidstrom 2. Yzerman 3. Fedorov 4. Shanahan 5. Vladdy 6. Datsyuk 7. Z 8. Igor 9. Osgood 10. Draper

He gave Naslund a cheapshot that resulted in a concussion and then he went knee to knee with him later. That's what caused the "bounty" on his head. Another side point to keep in mind, is that the idiot Crawford knew about the bounty and still kept putting Bertuzzi out there against Moore during a blowout game. There's plenty of blame to go around on it, and Bertuzzi deserves his share, I'm not disputing it.

My perspective on the Moore incident is a little different. First of all, before someone gets offended by this, NO ONE DESERVES WHAT HAPPENED TO MOORE. Having said that, Moore was an ass as a player. He was a cheapshot artist and had tried to take Naslund's knee out in the previous game with the Canucks. (That doesn't justify what happened to him and I'm not pretending that it does). If we think back, though, Claudia cheapshotted Draper, and then McCarty got retribution. Techinically, though, McCarty's pummeling of Lemiux could have caused serious injury too. The guy deserved an ass kicking, but to continually pummel him when he was on the ice could have caused serious injury. What if Lemiux would have had a broken neck or something that would have ended his career as a result of Mac kicking his ass? Would people feel that same way about him as they do Bertuzzi? I doubt it. Don't get me wrong, I LOVED seeing Claudia get pummeled and I hate that Moore had his career ended. I just can't help but wonder how people would feel if Lemiux had been seriously injured.

This rather short thread is full of incorrect info. Shanahan and Wings mgt. had a mutual parting and it was not "soar" or sour at all. He signed for equal or less money in NY than the Wings had offered. Shanahan was not a free agent acquisition and was traded for and finally, a hired gun is generally somoene who is with a team a short period of time, wins, and moves on. Shanahan was in Detroit a long period of time, won three cups and moved on. That's not a hired gun. There, now I can say that I have less than zero interest in him returning to the Wings.

I stand corrected. I was using the numbers Eva threw out and I didn't check to see if they were accurate. My bad.

Yup, Draper: 17 points at 2.5 mill 147,000/pt Fedorov: 41 points at 4.0 mill 100,000/pt (based on last year's stats and this year's salary) Both play very good defense and both are very overpaid. Having said that, there's a better chance that Fedorov can improve upon his numbers from last year since he'll be playing with Ovechkin. Draper will be in a defensive role and won't be expected to score. Feds is overpaid, but not terribly overpaid, imo.

Which would explain why fighting was up 33% last year. http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/marek/2008/04/post.html

I know, probably not the right thread but LGW is screwing up for me today. (maybe it's the satellite internet since it's cloudy)

Off topic: I wonder what Kenny would do if Flip has a year similar to this season, Hossa has a very good year, and the cap goes up 3-6 million dollars. I wonder if he'd be willing to let Hudler and Flip go and re-sign Hossa.

I've got a related question for you. Does the mass exodus of players from the Pens concern you in any way? I realize they've signed some replacements but it just suprised me how many players left and how quickly they left. My initial reaction when I saw everyone leaving was that there is something or someone that the players can't stand. I read a post on letsgopens.com that stated that maybe Therian is the driving force behind these guys leaving? I'm just curious what your perspective on that is.

I thought you said you wanted them playing regular fourth line minutes. I admit, I didn't read all seven pages of posts. I thought you were saying to let Downey go and not get someone else to take that role. So, then, I think you and I actually agree, to an extent. My point is, that Downey at 500k is much more realistic at this time than any of the guys you mentioned due to salary cap issues. I'm not sure of their salaries, though. Personally, I'd like Downey and a great big, fightening bastard to be playing at the same time. But I realize that most likely won't happen.

True. But I just don't think there are many guys out there that fit your criteria. Also, notice, in my post I said that they would also see fewer minutes. But they would still be out there occasionally and I wouldn't want them getting run without any fear of retribution.