YoungGuns1340

Bertuzzi's return delayed Bertuzzi's trade value just went down. No GM - including Holland - is going to want to trade a decent prospect for a guy that cant return to the lineup til AFTER the deadline.

If Hudler turns out to be better than Datsyuk, then it will all be forgotten because Filppula will then turn out to be the new Sid Crobsy. Seriously, if Hudler ever turns out to be the next Datsyuk, then we can save ourselves the 5 years of Hudler's playoff busts.

I wouldnt go as far to say Hudler would be a disappointment, but I do think the Wings should save the rookie roster spots for Grigs and Flip before Hudler. If the Wings had no chance of bringing over Grigs, Id probably say keep Hudler to wait and see. ahh but you were a little obsessive with the "breaking necks kills" bit. I, on the other hand, said nothing about parades. Anyways, Im done with this. Like I said on page one, Id rather trade Hudler for Bert, than trade Hudler and a 1st for Guerin.

Thanks. This is the typical sign of somebody who has been proved wrong. They take the other persons opinion and blow it up to astronomical proportions to make themselves look better. I have my opinion and that is that Bertuzzi never meant to break the neck of Moore. If he wanted to fight Moore, he shouldve done it face to face and I dont think anyone would say otherwise, but people do things in the heat of the moment that they often times regret. Bertuzzi was obviously regretful for what he had done and it shows in the way he is more tentative nowadays. I dont think even he can justify to himself what he did was right, but ultimately my point is that the result of "the Moore incident" was not his intended outcome and that mistake should not paint him forever as the scum of the earth, as some like to think of him. I still think he can be an honorable guy in many cases, standing up for his teammates, and I dont think many would expect him to ever repeat anything similar to what he did, which is not what you can say about the traditional cheap-shot artists.

Honestly, can people here read a post without making assumptions?? Just read what I said. In no hockey world does Bertuzzi belong in that group of guys, except when it comes to the "Moore" incident. There are hundreds, literally, of guys in the NHL who, on average, are/were as dirty as Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi would never stand out for his particular dirtiness in the way the other guys did had the Moore incident never happened. Thats the point. Bertuzzi suckerpunched a guy and had the outcome not been the same, a suspension wouldve been handed out and people would say "hey do you remember Bertuzzis cheapshot on Moore" not "OMG bertuzzi is the antichrist and should be banned from the sport of hockey. Breaking necks kills. breaking necks kills. blah blah blah" Please state where I said "Bertuzzi made one mistake and did something dirty" I said he "took a real bad turn" ONE time. What I would classify as a real bad turn is not a slightly high hit, etc, but a suckerpunch to the head. Reading comprehension 101, buddy. BTW, go to an Avs board and theyll tell you that Draper, Maltby, and Homer were/are all dirty and/or cheap players.

What? So since when did you have access to Bertuzzi's innermost thoughts??? The reason Bertuzzi most likely wanted to fight Moore is because NASLUND IS BERTUZZI'S BEST FRIEND. Please continue to ignore this fact.

I guess so...and they put up more points in a more defensive, clutch and grab era. Kind of screws the pooch on that point about Hudler being better than Dats at his age. Okay, well THAT is much different. Being the 3rd on the team and "producing' could be a difference of 30-40 points. At any rate, back to my original original point, I see nothing wrong with Hudlers skills. He IS a skilled guy. But hes too small and doesnt have speed which is the most important tool in overcoming severe lack of size. On a team like Detroit, thats not going to do us any good, unless the next guys to come up in the system were bona fide power forwards.

Exactly my point. Hockey like this has always had its place in hockey. From the days of the broad street bullies til now. It may not be right, but it still exists. As for Bertuzzi, youll see that his name wasnt included in that list of guys. Why? Those guys were dirty from day one til the end of their careers. Bertuzzi took a real bad turn ONCE and got the worst result out of any of those guys, with the exception of maybe Samuelsson and McSorely, guys who Bertuzzi could never match up to in terms of dirtiness.

...and here is exactly the bulls*** Im pointing out. Production vs ice time does not work when your ice time is all against bottom pairing defenseman. If Hudler played top 6 minutes, hed face off against guys who could easily handle him.

I just explained to you what my point was. Are you seriously going to ignore it entirely? This isnt about who he pairs up with or who it doesnt. Its about the fact that saying he will score more goals with more minutes is not the case, because he will face defenders many times as talented as the ones hes faced when scoring already. ...and if you want to say that Zetterberg and Datsyuk werent matched up against first defensive pairs, thats all fine and dandy. But Hank had 22 goals and 44 points, while Datsyuk had 35 points himself.

What Bert did was outside the bounds of normal hockey play? Ulf Samuelsson, Darcy Tucker, Scott Nichol, Bryan Marchment, Claude Lemieux, Marty McSorley, Tie Domi, Bobby Clarke, etc beg to differ.

You COMPLETELY missed the point. Thanks for playing. Let me fill you in. My post was in response to one that said, because Hudler scores X amount of goals on the 4th line, he will score 2X goals on the first line. That is ridiculous to say, because should Hudler play on a 2nd line, he would not be facing rookie/bottom pairing defenseman.

Did you know that a puck to the chest stopped Pronger's heart for nearly a minute? Do you know that your heart stopping can kill you? Perhaps we should suspend any player who fires a puck above 80 mph. Mudvayne, by your logic, hitting a guy in a hockey game shoulder to shoulder and causing a concussion could be penalized with assualt and battery charges. Guys like Torres, Morrow, Vishnevski, et al dont mean to do, but what you're saying is that intent doesnt matter, only result.

To say Hudler is so great because he scores every X number of minutes is bunk. If he were in a top 6 role, he wouldnt be continually facing off against the 3rd pairing and rookie/sophomore defenseman. Theres no telling what that could do to a 5'8 guy with little speed and skating ability.

Heres an interesting stat for the Hudler debate: Of the 9 goals that Hudler has scored, and of the 18 possible defenseman on the ice when Hudler scores, only 3 would be considered top 3 defenders, and of those 3, one is notoriously known for being a pylon in his own end. Against NSH - Weber, Hamhuis Against SJ - Gorges, Vlasic Against SJ - Gorges, Mclaren Against EDM - Smid, Greene Against EDM - Smid, Smith* Against CBJ - A. Johnson, Tollefson Against Dal - Boucher*, Daley Against NYR - Tyutin, Girardi Against MTL - Komisarek, Souray*

Im sorry but to calculate stats like this means absolutely NOTHING. IF Hudler were ever on one of the top 2 lines, he would facing TOP DEFENDERS. Do you know how easy it would be for the majority of top 4 defenseman in this league to handle Hudler? You wanna bring up Steve Sullivan?? Martin St. Louis?? You have to look no further than their speed to know why they get by the way they do. Those guys do not just have speed, they are some of the fastest players in the league. Hudler has suspect skating and is average AT BEST and defenders will have a fairly easy time containing him when he cant fly by avoid their checks.

St. Louis is one of the best all around skaters in the league, let alone one of the fastest, likely top 5. Not to mention, his heart and effort has never been suspect, as has Hudlers.

Ive always felt this way too. In no way can you ever defend suckerpunching, but that same suckerpunch has been pulled many times and rarely does it turn out the way it did. Was it right for Bert to do it? Absolutely not. But its ridiculous to think that his end in mind was to break another guys neck. I could name off plenty of guys in this league that have done irresponsible, dirty things and because the result wasnt so severe, theyve gone unpunished. Does anyone bring up Perezoghin taking a lumberjack chop - litterally - to another guys head in the minors? No, because the injury wasnt as severe. But it could have been. Just a few weeks ago, what if when Cajanek intentionally cracked Maltby in his face with his stick, the blade caught Maltby be in the eye and caused him to have severe eye damage. What then?

Thats good news. Im really not surprised though - Cheli's a pro through and through.

I dont think hes worth a lot, but I bet he could fetch Jamal Mayers. That would be an improvement in my book.

Hudler has astounding talent? This is news to me. Hudler needs full time minutes, but at whose price next season? Id rather see Filppula get the increased minutes and after Filppula (or in addition to Filppula) Id rather have it go to Grigs. Both those kids have more to offer than Hudler. By the time Filppula and Grigs are Hank and Dats age, we'll have a new couple of kids ready to join the big club. Theres always another reason to have valuable prospects, and thats to use them as trade bait. The Red Wings cant expect to win a lot of games - and thats not something Illitch will like to see - having 3 young kids in the lineup, unless they are malkin types.

Exactly what better deals can get done? The only guy better is Guerin, the most coveted rental player around right now. JD's asking price for him already is a player/prospect and a 1st Like I said, if Bertuzzi costs Hudler, Guerin will cost Hudler and a 1st . Also, you have to consider that most teams (anaheim, san jose, carolina) have better prospects/players to offer and their 1st rounders will likely be lower than Detroit's which may mean Detroit needs to tip the trade even further just to beat out the competition. For example, Joe Pavelski (rumored to be trade bait) and SJ's 1st rounder would beat out Hudler and our 1st every day of the week and twice on sunday's. That may mean Detroit has to offer Hudler, a 1st and maybe a 5th/6th to tip the scales. If thats the case, Hudler for Bert straight up looks better and better every second. At any rate, Holland wont do anything until hes seen Bert play a few games, so you can all rest assured until then.

Or how bout Hudler, Williams and a 2nd for Bertuzzi AND Gelinas. or Hudler for Bert and Willy for Mayers. Either way, lets find ANY trade to get rid of Williams.

If Bertuzzi costs Hudler, Guerin will cost way more than that. Both players are rentals. If the Wings sign Bert, they wont get Guerin or Tkachuk too. If the Wings trade Hudler straight up for Bert, that could save them having to use firsts and seconds to land Guerin.

Perry has waaay more value than Hudler. Considering everything, even Bert's status, I think I would do it. Itll be nice to see him in those 3 games, and if he joins Detroit, hell know that hes been signed to bring some grit. The idea of seeing Bert in a Wings uniform alone would make me consider Hudler, but in the end, we are paying a price. Bottom line is that Burke wont trade Perry PERIOD. Hes no Milbury. Perry for Bertuzzi would be a candidate for worst trade of the year. Knowing that, Florida's asking price might go down.