CloudConnected

There is more obstruction out there today than in any game I've seen in a while. Hopefully they'll start calling it soon. After 1, the Ducks have thrown their best at us, and the score is tied. I'm feeling ok with this right now.

Mike Richards was the first guy that popped into my mind. (Aside from Crosby, AO, Malkin) That's kind of tough to say, because it is too soon for some of these guys. I could mention someone like Phil Kessel if he keeps improving, but he's just starting to break through this year. Way too soon. Same goes for Setoguchi and Bobby Ryan. How about Paul Stastny?

I don't particularly agree with that. Most people blast Crosby for the whiner/cheap-shot artist/smug characteristics. If he scores a big goal, he can celebrate, and I have seen him celebrate before. Have some fun. I love it when AO rockets into the boards, it makes the arena go crazy and I think it gets his teammates even more into it. It's kind of like someone in football scoring a big touchdown and jumping on some of his teammates that are coming to congratulate him. I don't think I've ever seen AO exclude his teammates from his celebration, or taunt the other team. He makes it look like he's just having fun, which is contagious.

Mac didn't challenge Claude straight up, Claude was trying to save face after his embarassment and went after Mac right at the drop of the puck. Claude was emotionally charged and had probably one of the better fights of his career. He had the incentive of trying to save his manhood, and he fought to a draw. As far as fighting our resident heavyweight, I don't know if Mac was ever a heavyweight. He was more of a middleweight. Kocur was a heavy. Probie was a heavy. I don't think Mac was. He'd bump up a weight class to stick up for his teammates, but at the time of feud with Claude, he wasn't a heavy. Heavies back then were Kocur, Twist, Grimson, Laraque, Oliwa, Ray and those guys. Guys who were only really there to fight, and just their presence deterred fights from happening because no one wanted to tangle with them. Mac was a guy who could play a regular shift and stick up for his teammates when the time came. He wasn't a heavy. I don't think that Claude has ever made us look like nancies. I also don't think that at his age he's in the physical shape to really school anyone in a fight. The only shots in his recent "fight" that he came close to landing were when the refs stepped in. I don't think he's a threat.

Recently, I've been reading on here that we should trade Flip if it means we can keep Franzen and Hossa. I don't know if this thread is an attempt at a justification of us keeping Val around, but the whole argument of Val being our 4th best forward is moot. This is a salary-capped NHL. 3 million a year for a 3rd line center is too much when you have Datsyuk and Zetterberg wrapped up long term. If you have a top talent in Hossa on the table, a defensively responsible, finishing power forward in Franzen sitting there, a sniper who is good in traffic like Hudler as a UFA, it's illogical to spend that much on a third line center. Especially when it seems Helm, Leino and Abdelkader can step in and give solid 3rd line minutes. Flip is tradable, and you know what? The Wings won't be kicking themselves for pulling the trigger on that deal. We can live without him. Now for the argument that Flip is our 4th best forward, I have to disagree. I've watched 80% to 90% of our games so far on the season, and you don't notice Flip every night. That's fine, no one can bring it every night, it's a long season. But you don't notice him in the play a whole heckuva lot. I notice Cleary more than Flip out there. I notice Hudler more out there. I notice Helm more out there. Hell, I notice Sammy more out there! (and not for the bad plays!) Flip just doesn't carry the play. It doesn't mean he's a bad player by any means, but he's not very dangerous. He doesn't take the puck away from the other team a lot, he doesn't lug the puck a ton, he doesn't shoot very well, he's not physical, he doesn't play as well in traffic as most of our other players. He's not our 4th best forward. Franzen is better, Cleary is more all-around, Hudler is much better offensively... It's just a stretch to say he's our 4th best forward.

You never turn down a high pick in the draft. We do so well with the low picks, imagine what our system would look like if we had legitimate high end studs. Take the pick!

I think the music selections at the Joe are absolutely awful. His selections are very stale, and I think the guy who runs the music thinks he's a little too clever. He's played the same music for every situation for years on end.

He graduated college?

Umm....Isn't sloppy seconds when a guy gets with a chick after another guy has already nailed her? So he's saying a part of her anatomy is sloppy? I think that's a little demeaning...no? But really, I mean I love sports, and this suspension wouldn't have happened in any other league. It would have been a highly talked about game on ESPN and added a little bit of drama into the hockey game. ESPN would have eaten it up, and it would have gotten the talking heads paying attention to our league a little bit. I like hockey the way it is, but exposure never hurts.

Did Yoda start this thread? Anyway, I've been catching most of the games this year, and really, I can't get too worked up about anything yet. Febuary is when you really have to start grading out the team. By then usually hot and cold streaks have evened out production and you get a feel for what you have going forth. I really think it's too early to add anyone new outside of Helm. Our D hasn't been that good, but Lilja has been solid and Lebda seems like he's rounding back into what he is, a #6 dman. Big Rig is down in GR until later in the year. We'll see him up before it's all said and done. Ozzy and Conklin have not been great, but they'll get better when our D gets a little more steady. Don't panic yet.

I will say, Stevens did have two better seasons than Neely did. But again, Stevens played alongside one of the 3 best offensive players in hockey history. And if you don't think that helps along his stats at all, then you my friend are in the dark. Also, you still can't argue his candidacy for the hall of fame because of how terrible he was the last eight years of his career. He had more bad seasons than good seasons! How can you argue him over Neely?

Eva, come on. You can't downgrade Neely for being the third best player on his team when Stevens played with Mario, Jagr, Ron Francis, Recchi, Tocchet, Larry Murphy, Paul Coffey, Joe Mullen, Luc Robitaille, Marty Straka... That's absurd. Say what you will about Stevens not needing Mario, truth of the matter is that he didn't produce when he was taken off of a team with at least 6 legitimate Hall Of Famers. Stevens will not make the Hall because in the last 8 years of his career he was an afterthought. Neely had a sustained level of excellence in his career, regardless of games played.

Haha, yeah those stats kill me...

I actually do see the point, and I alluded to it when I said the only one of these guys who has a chance is Dino. I think he could get in, but he'll be waiting for a long time for it. As far as Neely vs. Gallant... Gallant was never the player Neely was. I loved Gallant, but he had 4, maybe five good seasons. Neely was dominant for around ten years. Even in his injury shortened seasons, he was still at or near a goal per game player in a few and a point per game in the others. He was dominant. You want to know why Gallant won't get in? The way he fell off in the early 90s. He was a shadow of himself for his last five years of his career, and even played in the IHL because he couldn't hold an NHL job. I loved Gallant in his Detroit stint, but he wasn't Neely. He was nowhere near as effective as Neely. Stevens' injury was more gruesome. Much more gruesome. But I still wouldn't say it was more severe to an athlete. If you take out an athlete's legs, he can't play anymore. It doesn't matter what sport. Pilon's hit on Stevens was no laughing matter, but Stevens played a full season the year after his injury, and had a great season. The injury didn't kill his career, being traded did. Kevin Stevens is widely seen as a man who benefitted from playing with Mario for 5 seasons. As soon as he wasn't riding shotgun to Mario, he couldn't put the puck in the net anymore. His last nine seasons in the NHL were spent bouncing from team to team because of his ineffective play. No one is putting him in the Hall. Neely went out as a top player. I'd venture to say that if he had hung around and played in 4 or 5 ineffective seasons with a couple of different teams, he wouldn't be in the Hall right now. But he went out against his will because of his hip condition due to all of his leg injuries, and stepped into the Hall.

Out of any of those guys you are talking about, only Dino has a shot. The Hall of Fame is about stats, trophies and all-star selections. And 5th place Postseason All-Star votes aren't going to do it for anyone in this group. And I will say that Dino has one thing going for him, he is one of the greatest net-front offensive players of all time. He scored 600 goals, and 500 of them probably came with someone in his grill trying to get him away from the crease. Dino was elite at what he did, plus he has stats. That's why he's the only one of these guys in the running to me. Primeau had flashes of dominance, but he doesn't have the stats. Not even in comparison to his contemporaries. He was a good 2nd line center in his prime. Not HOF worthy. Sheppard played in the late eighties too, and in the early nineties. Both eras were marked with a lot of offense. And he had the misfortune of having to try to score while playing with the Panthers. It works against him, he won't be considered. Gallant played in the era you say has inflated numbers, and his career numbers are pedestrian. Loved Gerard, but he doesn't get consideration. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling you are discrediting Cam Neely, but people remember him fighting through injuries to be a point per game player and a physical force. 50 goals in 49 games is quite a feat any way you slice it. He had heart, he had skill, and he was a tough bastard. He exemplifies hockey, that why he's in.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how Lebda is a better asset than Quincey. Lebda can skate, but he's never asserted himself offensively or defensively. He's not physical, he loses too many one on one battles and corner battles. He can't play special teams. Umm... so how is he an asset? I'm not going to comment on Meech, because we haven't seen enough of him yet. And I think it's way too soon to call Quincey a low-end stay at home defenseman. He's off to a good start, plus he played well in his playoff callup. I don't think he'll keep playing at this high level, but I don't think he'll hit a low level either. If an NHL team is going to give him those kind of minutes AND Quincey is using them this productively, how can you downgrade what he's done over what Lebda has? Quincey has potential...no not Adam Foote, Matthias Norstrom potential, but he can be a solid #4 if paired with a mobile #3. Lebda can skate, but he doesn't have the other tools that our other prospects have. Why keep Lebda in the way of them?

Montreal Canadiens Tomas Plekanec-Mike Ribeiro-Guillame Latendresse Sergei Kostitsyn-Saku Koivu-Andre Kostitsyn Darcy Tucker-Chris Higgins-Mike Ryder Maxim Lapierre-Craig Conroy-Aaron Asham Matt D'Agostini Andrei Markov-Matt Schneider Mike Komisarek-Mark Streit Ron Hainsey-Francois Beauchemin Stephane Robidas-Craig Rivet Patrice Brisebois Tomas Vokoun Carey Price Jaroslav Halak Jose Theodore Mathieu Garon That's kind of an impressive lineup. The Defensemen and Goalies especially. edited for spelling

If we're looking for someone from the Wings who has had a very successful career...Tyler Perry was drafted us in the 6th round in 1995. He's gone on to have a few #1 movies and a hit TV show. Not that I've seen any of them... Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom Franzen-Filpulla-Knuble Kozlov-Fedorov-Hudler Kopecky-Helm-Fleischmann McCarty/Lapointe/Matthias Lidstrom-Kronwall Dandenault-Eriksson Ericsson-Quincey Meech Ozzy Howard You guys can't use Fischer to inflate the Wings roster.

Honestly, I don't think Quincey was given that much of a shot. When he was called up last year he wasn't bad, and he was probably a little too up tight this preseason. That being said...Here's Quincey's LA Kings stats! Quincey:4gp 1g 1a 2p +4 4PIM 22:22ATOI Looks like he's found his game nicely over there. Good for Quincey. He'll end up being better than Lebda. I've said this in the past and I'll say it again...Lebda is a smaller, less versatile Mathieu Dandenault.

You actually had Lebda on your fantasy team?

I didn't really expect Maurice to get the job, he's never really been that great of a coach. He's had some limited success, but I could see the Isles sinking with him. As far as Hartley goes, it's probably best for him that he didn't get the job. The Isles will be a younger team and will go through some growing pains. I don't know how many more teams Hartley could stand to be fired from if he didn't do well. His success with the Avs seems like a while ago now, and it would be hard to say how long his stock would be up if he floundered with the Isles. Gordon's the right choice here. I still don't expect them to be very good, but at least Gordon has experience developing players. He was AHL coach of the year last year, so he's worth a shot at the next level. edited do to posting without my glasses on

I added Andreychuk because the list of players included players who were better than him. Nieuwendyk and Recchi were both better players throughout their careers, and both players have two cups to Dave's one. (Joe in Calgary and Dallas, and Recchi in Pittsburgh and Carolina) Recchi absolutely carried a few of the teams he was on in the early 90s, and Joe was always a highly regarded center. I'm not taking anything away from Andreychuk, but Recchi and Joe were on the list, and I felt Andreychuk would be in about the same tier as them.

With all of the great classes that will be coming up in the next few years, it's hard to say if any of these guys will be first-ballot guys. Forsberg and Bure have a chance, but I think that people in this forum do make Bure out to be a better player than he was. He was a GREAT goal scorer, had wheels...but not much after that. Even though I'm not a Fedorov fan, he was a better player than Bure. Plus, Bure had some injury plagued seasons and his teams were never that great except for a 2 or 3 of those Canucks teams. That being said, he'll get in, but I don't know about first ballot. As far as the other guys on the list go, I think Joe Nieuwendyk and Mark Recchi have a good chance. These guys were great players in their prime. Recchi was especially good on the right side, he's always been kind of a quiet player though. I think he has a shot, and Joe played good hockey his entire career. He's got a Smythe, a Calder and was solid. I think Zubov could make it, he's just another one of those quiet guys. He's like a poor man's Lidstrom, and he doesn't have the hardware that makes his name jump out. He's been quietly great over the long haul though. Kariya...injuries during his prime. It's hard to put him down as a sure thing. Foote...maybe. He's not a good defender, but he has a Norris and was a highly visible player. Mogilny and Bondra were too streaky. They could go eventually if there's a weaker class, but i don't see them getting in too soon. Also, I would like to add Dave Andreychuk to the list. 640 career goals is hard to leave out, even if he did play over 20 years. Longevity and success should count for something. What does everyone think about Andreychuk?

I think Dino gets in on his numbers. It is awfully hard to repeatedly turn away a guy who has 600 career goals in the NHL. Phil Housley is in. I think Larionov could get in... he was great on the national stage and had a productive NHL career. Glen Anderson should get in this year too. He was too clutch not to be in the Hall. Doug Gilmour or Adam Oates... that's tough. Gilmour was a great 2 way player, and Oates didn't win much, but is one of the best setup men in history. They could both get in.

Kenny doesn't seem to like to use all of his cap space because he likes to keep his own players when they need raises. He's not going to significantly overpay for them, but it's nice to know you're not handcuffing yourself (Jay Feaster?) or opening yourself up for one of your young stud RFAs to get snipered by an offer sheet (Brian Burke?) Holland will stay below the cap just to make sure he won't lose anyone he's building around. If he can sneak in a Sundin or a Malone and still have a few million to play with, then he'll try to do that. If not, he feels good about our team.