NeverForgetMac25

Until Kane's suspended no one can assume they'll be without him. Chicago beat both Vancouver and Calgary in the postseason when their inexperience was supposed to show. Huet isn't a very good goalie, but there's far worse and he's serviceable. Chicago isn't worse than half the teams you listed. Anaheim should not be ahead of them given their offseason and Washington is debatable.

Once again, not saying they won't....but what makes you so sure your scenario will take place. The Wings, while still stacked had a quite a bit of roster turnover, while the Hawks added firepower. Yeah they lost some pieces, but they've also gained some great experience last year and probably quite a bit of hunger. The Wings have played in the SCF's the past two years and made it to the WCF's the year before. They're older and have to be more worn out than a younger, more well rested team. Again, I'm not saying the Wings aren't better than the Hawks....*they are,* but its not so inconceivable that the Wings will be pushed by a young, talented squad. It seems as though far too many Wings fans have this superiority complex and as a result can never give another team credit.

I agree they shouldn't be ahead of the Wings. If history has proven anything, its that the Wings will be in the same shape they have been for the past 15 years, which is at or right below the number one spot in the NHL. That doesn't mean the Blackhawks won't push and aren't a better team then they were last year.

I never said they weren't. I was referring to comparisons amongst the other 28 teams. Who said anything about Huet over Osgood, I most certainly didn't. I also didn't say the Wings won't win the division, but they will be pushed harder for it this year then in recent years past. If people don't see that, they've got the blinders on.

They're the youngest team in the league, they grew leaps and bounds during the postseason, and Crawford will occupy that spot before too long. A lot of teams took backward steps, so please tell me who you think is better than Chicago at this point.

Chicago is going to be solid this season. That's not that far-fetched. They'll pose a bigger threat to winning the division than NSH did in the 06/07 season.

How about...he was referring to the 90's. Jesus, Lighten up. Classic!

I wasn't being sarcastic. I was letting people know the Wings' cap space come the deadline given this current roster. Did you not finish your sentence, because I'm confused by the "ending."

No, there won't be many (if any) players being moved that make that kind of money, however I was merely letting people know the Cap room Kenny will be dealing with if he so chooses to make a move.

No, No, No.....Kenny's clearly a moron. Just read the boards today and you'd think the guy never did a single thing right his entire career. The fact of the matter is that I don't care for the Williams signing either, I see what Kenny's doing. Through the emotion out and one can really see things much clearer. Nice post, btw.

A lot of that will depend on how well the kids in GR have progressed through that point. If Kenny sees an abundance in one area or another, it most certainly makes making a move easier to deal with.

Last warning. You've were warned during the finals, and this type of flame-baiting isn't going to be tolerated.

If the Wings play with this roster all season they could sign a $2.5 million player at the deadline. If Lilja doesn't play this season, they'll have enough cap space to add roughly an $8.5 million player. Note: All this is contingent on the injury situation throughout the season.

He wouldn't have signed for that amount for a second year. He's signed the one year deal to hopefully up his value next season.

My point is that Mac can't provide for this team what he did provde for them in the 90's. Mac was tough yet had some skill to go along with his style of play. That's not the case anymore for him, and that's all I was referring to in regards to Mac. I most certainly don't think the Wings have guys as tough as the all-around 90's version of the Wings, but I also don't see that situation happening again. It was a very unique situation that would be hard enough to replicate, especially given the current Red Wings roster. The 90's version was chippier, and that's part of the reason the March 97 brawl took place to begin with.

We're having a decent debate here, and no one in this current discussion is making those comments, so lets not even get into that. I'm not calling you guys grit-slappies (nor am I implying that Mors comment was in reference to me).

Well, clearly neither of us fall into this category so we can leave that out of this debate. I watch somewhere in the ballpark of 500-600 hockey games a year and to say the game hasn't changed in the regard to it being more difficult for one dimensional enforcers to keep their jobs isn't true. Laraque even agrees.

You'll get no argument from me stating that fighting wasn't important for the Wings in the 90's (I most certainly wasn't the one that said that). A fair amount of players regard the March '97 game as the one that brought the team together. Toughness and Enforcers aren't always the same thing. Guys like Helm and Drake bring toughness while they also had the ability to chip-in in other areas of the game.

Are you serious? The rules are completely different, putting a much greater emphasis on speed and skill. Enforcers that aren't talented enough in either of those categories either (a) aren't in the league very long or (b) don't play when it matters the most.

Yes, I like Mac and what he's done for the team. That doesn't change the fact that its not needed *now* like it was in the 90's. You're comparing Apples to Oranges when you compare these past two decades. My question to you was in regards to you stating that fans of the Wings who seemingly don't care for enforcers haven't been around long enough. I find that to be a bullsh*t comment. There's pleny of fans that have been around long enough to not only appreciate what some of these tough guys have done, but also understand the direction the game has taken. I like to think I'm one of them.

To me, that's just as silly as those who think enforcers are the end all solution. (Not saying that you are with that last statement) Neither hold any water with me. Now that's something most rational people shouldn't argue. That being said, whether it was because of Downey or Bab's system finally sinking in to level it needed to be is another debate.

So what? Does that mean I can't be realistic about what Mac *now* brings to the team?

His impact was felt, but it wasn't as significant as some make it out to be. That's my point. In regards to your anaysis of Mac, I disagree that he played solid defense. I thought he looked lost out there most of time. Lastly, don't think I don't see the contributions of 3rd and 4th liners. I'm extremely realistic when it comes to what those types of players should and shouldn't be providing (I.E. See my many debates regarding Lilja and Sammy). That's why I stated I'd take a Drake-type of player any day. That's why I'm as fired up as I am to have Helm as a full-timer. He'll be great for this current Wings team.

I've been a fan of the Wings since the late 80's. Based on your theory, what do you make of that?

We're somewhat on same page, but not completely. Who was it that was on the team in 07/08 that you'd consider a "tough guy?" Drake as well as a part-time Mac and Downey don't really count in my book when compared to the others you listed. It was no different than last year, yet one year we have a Cup to show for it and the other we ended up one game shy. All this being said, I'd take a Drake-type of player any day for the 4th line.