b.shanafan14

ING!

At first I was thinking, "whats the big deal" until that last shot. Clearly a goal, no real way to overturn the decision on the ice really, but clearly a goal.

I agree. And its not only his top-end, breakaway speed thats the most impressive. The most incredible thing to me is how he plays against the boards in the corners. He can go from skating fast as hell, stop on a dime, fake one way, and then from a dead stop go shooting in the other direction and find open ice. From a pure skating ability aspect, I'm not sure I've seen anything like him in a long time. That and he completely busts ass every shift, which is encouraging as hell.

I've noticed the refs allowing more and more clutching and grabbing this season especially, but yet they are still able to make the phantom calls, so I guess it all evens out. I hate the cheap BS like that which slows down the game most of all. I've never called for the need for more goals really, I've never had a problem with it. I do hate how this generation of hockey player seems to hit, often with the elbows or from behind. I don't think it has anything to do with the system in place, but it seems like once a week you hear about a borderline dirty hit and someone going down for a month. For some reason, probably because the Wings have been so horrible offensively this season, the clutching and grabbing seems up from previous years. Also, just like in the previous era, you have to take into account players and coaches adjusting to refereeing trends and the overall bulls*** of the Bettman Era.

WTF!!!! HONESTLY? I really thought this was a joke, this is just ******* surreal....

This is the whole problem with the argument. People are confusing the call for Osgood to get a start as he has played better and deserves to be in goal over Howard. That isn't what is being argued. Howard has been the better goaltender this season, period. He has also gotten a much better opportunity to be that goaltender. This isn't about prefering Howard in goal or vise versa. This is about a reasonable split that we should be seeing and aren't. I'd be saying the same thing if Howard had an average start to the season and Osgood was randomly getting handed 7-8 games in a row, which we all know would never happen. And at least in that case, we wouldn't have to worry about our favored goaltender not having playoff experience. The bottom line is there is more to this then simply that Howard has been a god and Osgood has been a slug. We have a veteran netminder who is our go-to-guy come the Spring time and a rookie who is enjoying limited team success in an injury plagued season, perfect formula for 55-45 split, but instead we are seeing Howard getting the Mikka Kipprusoff schedule and Osgood being punished for unknown reasons.

Exactly, all points. This is a discussion forum and it works well when we are mixing points and counter-points. As soon as you dismiss the opinions that differ from your own as "fanboys" being biased and stupid with no grounds to argue such a point, you've probably lost perspective yourself. Remember, the reason we are all here arguing 23 pages on a subject is because we are all, to one degree or another, "fanboys"

awwww, who could forget that second penalty.... "he won't give me a piggy back ride! 2 minutes!". Looking back it pales in comparison to what I now refer to as playing "Hal Gill rules"...

Thanks for the link, haroldsnepsts. These are the kind of things that make me honestly question the validity of Howard starting 7-8 games in row purely on "do-right" and Osgood sitting because he hasn't earned it.

I agree with your point of view then, I too consider myself a Red Wings fan before any player. None of my arguments are in anyway meant to take away from Howard's awesome season, but I honestly don't see how it benefits the team to ice Osgood the way they are this season. Also, despite how well Howard has played, he has had a few poor outing when it would appear a perfect opportunity to start working Osgood into some games, the Ducks game the other night being one of them. I can also see why getting some offensive players back like the Wings are looking to tonight would be a good opportunity to maximize all areas, including not starting what is now a cold goaltender in Osgood. My problem is with how they have treated the goaltending situation to this point. I can't help but feel that Osgood deserves a much better shake and that the Wings are painting themselves into a corner by riding Howard for long stretches the way they are. Every consecutive game Howard starts he has to be feeling the pressure and his game seems to be cooling down. In much the same way, every game the Osgood is forced to watch and allowed to do nothing, his confidence is taking a severe hit, and there is no more important trait to the play of any hockey player than confidence, goaltending especially. I'm thinking about what is best for the team, and I'm no expert, but I think its every fan and player's right to question the coach. Hell, about 2-4 coaches a season lose their jobs in the league. Not saying Babcock is one of those by a long shot, just saying that a coach is not infallible.

Is he not taking accurate enough stats? Thats the flaw with the "hot goaltender plays" philosophy. Howard is doing well, but the Wings are not winning with regularity because of their absent offense. So, at this point, no matter how good or bad Howard does, he is still being called the "hot goaltender". Lets look at the last time Osgood got a start: - Howard wastes a good offensive effort with subpar play on the first of a back-to-back against Dallas. - Osgood plays the next night rather solid against a solid Chicago team with all of the offensive players tanked from double-shifting the night before, Wings lose 0-3, shots 20-35. - Three days later, Howard plays the same Chicago team, losing 0-3, shots 33-31. What exactly has Osgood done so poorly since then? No one is arguing that Howard isn't the better goalie at this point, but its a given considering there is little to evaluate Osgood's performance at this point of the season. The problem is we have a goaltender that we all acknowledge we need to get going, and instead of taking a dry spell to get both going, we are riding and overworking a single rookie tender because why? Because we ASSUME Osgood is that much worse? That's the issue here.

And neither can Jimmy Howard apparently, so why not give Osgood a start more than 2 or 3 times a month?

The odd men out will be Abdelkader since he can be sent back down. No one is going to trade for Leino, he's done nothing and looks like his frustration is actually causing him to unlearn hockey, so best case senario on that front is that we waive Ville, no one picks him up and he lands in GR, shortly before heading back to Finland in that situation. I'd take Janik in a second over either Meech or Lebda, but I'm not sure the Red Wings' brass agrees. Lebda would have the most value because of his experience and skating ability, so I'd love to see him on the trade block. Unfortunately, we could see a Brad May or Drew Miller being an oddman out, as much as I hate either of them getting waived, its a very real possibility.

Name two games in the last month where if the goaltending on our side was better, we could have won, and on both occasions, the culprit in goal was not Osgood. Osgood has not played NEARLY poor enough to warrant being benched so much and if anyone noticed, Howard hasn't been as hot as people are giving him credit for. Has he been good? Hell yes. But we are definitely stretching the definition of a hot goalie at times this season. The real issues are these: 1) the Wings aren't winning games because of offense, not goaltending, no matter who is in goal. 2) Chris Osgood, like it or not, IS the goaltender we are going to need in the Spring IF this team makes the playoffs. Beyond that, the Wings owe him a degree of respect and a decent split of the starts and he hasn't played terrible so there is no warranting him sitting for 7 games a pop. 3) Given point #1, at this point it has mattered jack squat who is in goal to get us to said playoffs, so arguments saying we are basically riding Howard to the playoffs are invalid. 4) Howard has cooled down considerably from the hot goaltender people are still seeing him as and he has let in a soft goal or two, and even when he is on his game he is losing because no one can put the puck in the net on our side. Given all of these points, what exactly is the justification for benching a goaltender who has been the best post-season goaltender and lowest maintenance teammate for the past two seasons? If not his failures, or Howard's successes, or the team's "successes" so far, then what? We've lost 5 of the last 8 games, what do we have to lose by cycling in a goaltender who hasn't been given a fair shake and hasn't played nearly bad enough be be a liability?

Hope we're not rushing them back just so they can get injured again. Also, Osgood should get a start, this is getting ridiculus...

My point exactly. This isn't the story of one goaltender playing god-awful and the other being a world-beater, the former losing winnable games, the latter saving our asses. This is a team that can't do squat regardless until they start scoring goals, so why are we icing and alienating the goaltender that was one game (the last two final games offensive flops, oddly enough) from winning us back-to-back cups. Because we think we may lose a game 4-0 instead of 3-0?

Since we're bolding .... The Wings don't need a goaltender letting in 0.5 LESS goals a game to win at this point, they nee a goaltender averaging 0.5 goals a game period. Goaltending hasn't made a difference for the positive a whole lot this season considering all the terrible offensive games we've had. We've had a few poor goaltending nights on both sides and lost plenty with both in goal. Tonite was definitely not a stellar night for Jimmy, but anything less than a shutout is a loss these days. I can see your point if the games are 3-2 or 4-3 decisions, when we're letting in 3 or 4 and not getting a one, kind of dulls the idea of sitting one goaltender over the other. While Howard has been good, he has had plenty of not-so-good outings, he hasn't been mind-blowing enough to warrant icing your veteran clutch performer.

Whenever the Wings get a PowerPlay, I know its a good time to fix a snack. Its terribly pathetic, just trying to watch them regain the zone and once they have it, pass and pass and pass looking for the "best" shot, but always end up settling on a shot from the wall that goes high and wide with 10 seconds left in the PP anyways. Its honestly the most frustrating part of the game, and it used to be the most exciting. Nothing like watching 3 AHLers fumble around with the puck in and out of the offensive zone for 2 minutes and calling it an "advantage"....

NOOOOOOO..... say it ain't so, Cheli

I understand this argument, but the issue this whole season has never once been goaltending. As hot as Howard has been, his great play has stolen us a few games, but goaltending has only really lost as 3 or 4. The Wings' biggest problem is consistent scoring. The Wings are going to want Osgood to be the man later in the season and going into the playoffs IF they get there, which isn't going to happen with Osgood riding pine half of the season. There has always been a huge flaw in the 'hot hand plays' goaltending arrangement, especially since before this season it was never Babcock's way. Like it or not, Chris Osgood is the Wings' best hope come the spring time and has more than earned a respectable split of the starts. He hasn't played horrible like parts of last season and hasn't been given the opportunity Howard has been to play stellar. The key to the Wings' getting into the playoffs doesn't lie in net, it lies with the 18 skaters in front that have been shut out 6 times already this season (15%) and are in the bottom 1/3 of the league in Goals For. As injured players return, the offensive woes will take care of themselves. Osgood deserves more starts and this team really needs him to get those starts.

I love how well Howard is doing in goal. He has been a huge revelation and I doubt anyone honestly expected it given his prodigy status since like 2005 followed up with inconsistent AHL play. He's played incredible most nights and has earned most of his starts. That said, its hard to look at some of the games Osgood as played this season and say he hasn't played well enough to start more than 1 game in every 10. I think he has every right to be pretty peeved at the situation. Howard has played out of his mind, but thats never stopped Babcock from cycling in the other guy before (2007-2008, Hasek really spent the whole year significantly worse than Osgood, and yet he was still the guy until he almost lost it for us against Nashville). I'm not saying necessarily that seniority should be the determining factor, but even when Ozzy does play well and Howard doesn't, Osgood is still set at his 1 game in 6-8 since about the beginning of November. Great example was the game against Dallas on the front end of a back-to-back. Datsyuks line got double-shifted the whole night, and along with the Helm line the offense played out of their minds good, but Howard let in a few softies for sure (4 on 21 shots) and the Wings didn't end up with a point for their efforts. Probably Howard's worst game of the season, a must-win not based on the opponent, but based on the play of team, with its best players being double-shifted on the front end of a back-to-back. Osgood started against Chicago the next night, with a lineup completely gassed from the night before and they get shutout 0-3 against a Hawks team that came to play. Not Osgood's fault by a long-shot, in fact, he may have been the only player who showed up, but he allowed 3 goals on 35 shots and the Wings couldn't get a sniff. And almost as if to prove Ozzy isn't getting a fair look, Howard loses 3 days later 0-3 on a couple less shots. In both case, the goaltender is the last one to blame, but that game against Chicago was the last time we saw Ozzy in goal. I love what Howard is doing for the team and I hope he keeps it up, but we need to cycle in Osgood more than one every 6-8 games and then use that "he's played like crap" as an excuse, because that is very far off. Howard hasn't been without his off nights and nothing Osgood does in goal seems to earn him another start within a two week span. Just irritates me as a fan when Babcock says "we need to get Ozzy going" but has no real intention to do so.

I'd love to evaluate it the way you would like, but i'm far too lazy.... That said, Howard is playing awesome and we haven't seen enough of Osgood this year because he really hasn't gotten a fair shake. I love both of our goaltenders. I'm just a happy guy like that I guess.

Its bad enough there are 3 pts up for grabs some games. I don't like there being degrees of winning and losing, just like I feel that a shootout is a terrible way to end an interesting hockey game. I suppose at least every game would be worth the same amount of points, so perhaps it would f*** up the standings less (i.e. a team in 3rd place gets 2 points for a regulation win and then watches a game where the team in 1st gets 2 points and the team in 2nd gets 1 point, 3 points to the competition in one game just for going longer, wherein the 2nd place team is rewarded what could be the deciding point of the season for taking longer to lose a game)

I thought that too, but if its a good portion of the team out, and I'm sure they were playing the high rollers and buying drinks for friends, family, beautiful strangers, etc. probably the most expensive stuff, and plus the automatic gratuity for large groups, could get expensive fast, though that still seems astronomical. From the looks of it the place they went was probably expensive to begin with and the restaurant was charging them by-the-shot prices on the expensive liquor and from the sounds of it the players thought bottles should have been comped because they are big hockey stars (last in the West ) Either way, I'm sure the blame lies a little bit on both sides.

I think Howard has been great this season and has really been a pleasant surprise. That said, Osgood hasn't gotten a fair shake in my eyes. He hasn't played horrible and when he does play a good game he seems incapable of earning another start, win or lose. I think Ozzy is owed a better shot because as good as Howard is, Osgood still has two amazing post-seasons behind him and is our best bet this season. I'm not saying Osgood should be the guy right this moment, but he deserves more than one start in ten, especially since goaltending is the least of the Wings' issues.