wings4thecup06

I still think it would be best for Mantha' long term future if he learned to become a pro in GR - even if for only half a season, just to get himself adjusted to playing against bigger, stronger competition. The Wings don't lose here. If he tears up the AHL in the first half of the season, then it's more experience for him and it'll show he's ready for the next level, without having to shove him in at the deep end with the possibility of stunting his development. If he struggles, they can leave him there for longer to adapt and find his game. It's win-win IMO. For the record, it would be awesome to see Mantha start the year with the wings, but I think being in GR, even for a few months, would be beneficial.

Probably, and the fact that he only played half a season over here.

Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger · 23m As of last night, Toronto among the interested teams awaiting word from David Legwand following contract offer.

So Kindl for Green straight up anyone?

You make some good counter points sir, so I will respond in kind. While yes it is perfectly acceptable to make personnel changes without having losing seasons, I think our club has direction for the next couple of years and is trending up - that being the maturity and addition to the lineup of young, high potential players which complement our core players and provide vital depth. I don't think we can sit here and blame KH for not being able to sign FA's. Nor trading for the likes of Kesler, Spezza. If they don;t want to come it doesn't matter what it costs. (but we've been over that a thousand times elsewhere). The fact that the East is a weak conference right now is simply that. A fact. Obviously, that is something we can use to our advantage. But I don;t feel KH has become satisfied. Would everyone be bashing him if he'd been able to sign Niskanen? Last year he got the top 2 free agents on his list - what if Weiss hadn't been a bust and had potted 60 points? Lambast me for this all you will, but it's a different era now, and as teams are re-signing their key players before they hit free agency, you're going to have to give up a ton in a trade. I'm not adverse to trading for the right guy, if the price is right obviously. But I wonder right now if KH is holding onto his pieces until we are in the position where such an acquisition would put us over the top. This feeds into the lack of roster spots point you make also. Not all of those guys are NHL ready right now. But maybe, by the time march rolls around, if this team is doing really well, then we can use a couple of those pieces to acquire that top 2 D man we so desperately need.

Let me set this straight. I'm for upgrading and improving our team. Obviously, I'd like us to win a cup sooner rather than later, but I also realise, that by being consistently successful and not therefore getting high draft picks, drafting well is important. Which we have done. Personally, I feel that we now have enough youth that are either in our lineup right now or in GR to actually ice a very competitive team in the next 2 years. Would I have liked KH to have been able to sign one of the D men we have been debating on here for the last week or two? Sure I would. But it didn't happen. I'm not blind to the fact that we need to improve our D. Another year under the belts of Smith and Dekeyser will go a long way to helping things. But yes, I'm disappointed in KH for not being able to acquire someone better, but it is what it is. IMO, there isn';t much point sitting around throwing s*** about how bad a GM he is. Yes he hasn't made some great decisions lately, and I'll say that. What I will say however is that he has put us in a position to be continually competing, and with our current crop of forwards things look bright. If our kids get a chance on the back end, then we'll be better too. Some of you want sweeping changes across the board. And I would agree with you if we didn;'t have a dearth of young talent in our lineup right now, if we had no prospects in GR who are ready to help and will be given (by the sounds of it) every opportunity to help the team. If we were having losing seasons and had no bright sparks for the future, then by all means, blow it up and fire everyone. As for getting into the playoffs. Anything can happen, and I couldn't give a damn about how two teams stack up on paper. Yes Boston beat us in 5, but you can't sit here and say that we didn't play well enough to at least get that to 6 games. And the year before. How many people can honestly say they picked the Wings to knock off the Ducks? The team we have right now is a hell of a lot better than that one was. I'm not wearing rose tinted glasses. Nor drinking the cool aid. What I can see though is that patience, and timely additions in the next 2 season will put this team back where it all belongs. And I firmly believe that this season will be better than the one that has just gone. If people disagree, then that is their prerogative, but I won't' call for an overhaul when it's clearly not worth it, especially when we can ice a competitive team in a weak conference.

So what about the injuries? Even if the key guys are healthy, we now have younger, hungrier, speedier depth with our kid 3rd line to start with. Injuries while debilitating, aren't a total excuse. But there's no denying what we could have done if we had Dekeyser 2 years ago for the Chicago series. And why not be optimistic about this season? A full season from Sheahan, Jurco and Tatar could generate 60 goals between them. 20 more from Nyquist. Maybe 15-20 from a healthy Weiss too. That's nearly 80 goals that we didn't have this season. I'm not saying it'll turn us into world beaters, but we've definitely got more talent now than we had a couple of years ago. And yes you can say that the kids went to sleep against Boston. But how many playoff years did it take Datsyuk and Z to figure it out and elevate their play to the next level in the postseason? There's a reason why the Cup is the hardest trophy to win in pro sports. Frankly I don't care what's gone before anymore. The point is, we're starting a new season, with a roster that is good enough IMO to make the playoffs. Once you get in, who the hell knows what might happen.

1. Hank had back surgery to repair a trapped nerve. If you've ever experience one of those, it's excruciating. It's a miracle he was even able to play half a season of hockey. And in the 2 games against the Bruins, he looked (IMO) better than he had all season. An off season of proper rest and training will do him a power of good. 2. At no point did anyone ever say, suggest, or imply, that Datsyuk's knee was 'blown out'. If it was, he would have had surgery by now. From the reports I heard, they said that he had sore ligaments, possibly a sprain if my memory serves me correctly. Both are completely different from it being blown out. Again. You're missing the point. Even if you put LA to one side, there's still 3 teams in the last 4 years (Rangers in '14, Devils in '12, and Flyers in '10) who made the Finals without being anywhere close to a top seed.

At no point did I compare the Wings to the LA Kings. The point I was making was that history has shown us recently that you don't have to be a top 3 seed to either make the finals or win the Cup.

So considering the fact that the East got worse judging by yesterdays free agent standards, doesn't that improve the likelihood that we will make the playoffs again? Isn't that something worth getting behind? That your team actually succeeds? Isn't that the entire reason we cheer for sports teams in the first place? Success?

Why the hell wouldn't you want to make the playoffs? This isn't pre-lockout days where unless you had the hottest goalie in the history of the game did you even have a hope of causing an upset. LA were the number 6 seed in the west this year. 2 years before that they were the number 8 seed. The Devils were the 6 seed that year vs the kings. In 09-10 the Flyers were the number 7 seed in the East and they made the Finals. The point I'm making is, if you're roster is good enough to make the playoffs right now, why blow it up, because as we've seen, anything can happen. If you looked at the Rangers roster before the season began, and even after they traded for St Louis, would you still have picked them to beat Pittsburgh? This team is good enough to make the playoffs. And if anyone thinks that making the playoffs even if only to play 5 games is less valuable for the young kids experience than missing them completely, then you want your head testing. Last season, there were a few mistakes early that were costing us, and then the injury bug hit like Ive never seen. You cannot lose key players for extended periods like that an expect to keep competing, yet somehow we did. All of that experience is frankly, invaluable, such that when Pavel and hank come back healthy they'll be able to lead the way, and our kids last year will be able to provide depth and secondary scoring that every team needs to win. There will be ups and downs, but this team is trending up. The fact that we didn't sign a big name free agent on 1 day of the year doesn't mean otherwise.

Nice to know we can't even have 1 single thread now without it becoming a Holland basher. On topic, this is hilarious. Is there something in the water in Philly?

While I don't want to see Tatar leave, I actually think Kindl, Lashoff and Tats for Yandle would be an extremely good deal for the Wings. An up and coming forward who has top 6 potential, a reclamation project on D, and a 5-6-7 D man. Might have to throw in a 4th round pick too.

Because: The cap floor and ceiling are linked to league revenues (stupidly) which means that the cap continues to escalate. As a result, this gives the bigger teams more money to re-sign their top stars, further elevating their salaries. Meanwhile, all the s*** teams that can't afford to attract top talent (see Florida, Buffalo) then have to overpay mediocre players or middle of the road guys (See Bolland) just to make the floor so they don't get penalised. Which drives up salaries across the board - those guys who deem themselves to be on that same level now have a bargaining chip that says 'if so and so is worth this much, so am I'. Those guys who are a notch above the middle of the road guys don't want to take the ego hit that is having a salary that could be less than the middle road guys. So they ask for me and get it. The second stupid reason is that it was an extremely weak free agent market for D men. And as we know, less supply drives up the price. This isn't helped by league parity, which means that multiple teams can bid for the services of 1 or 2 players. The other thing is that GMs, owners etc have no control. Our spoiled society is very much driven by the 'what have you done for me lately' culture, and thus there is immense pressure to constantly improve, constantly get better, produce results, otherwise you're out of a job.

Dekeyser is probably a top 4 guy right now, and if not, will definitely be next season. Smith will also turn into a top 4 (I know some people disagree, but the guy has only played one full season in the NHL). I don't see, in the long run, how it helps by trading away 2 top 4 D men to get 1 in return?

While you've probably opened another can of worms within which people can keep the fire Holland trend going, I have to say, I couldn't agree with you more. As one of the few people around here who seem to actually be optimistic about this coming season, it's refreshing to see other with a similar opinion.

So. After a night's sleep on this I have come to realise one thing. If I tried to ignore all the posts I didn't like in this thread, I'd be left with virtually nothing to read. Seriously though, everyone really does need to just chill. We've still got a very good, competitive team that will see improvement from our kids (both at forward and D), hopefully a return to form from our number 1 goalie, hopefully a healthy season from Weiss and a full season from Datsyuk and Z. That alone should get us a good solid seeding for the playoffs. I'll bet on that. Yes the Quincey move does look a little panicked, but I still believe that he had a solid second half (I saw it with my own eyes after all, and I'm sure several others did). The thing with a D man like Quincey is, that when he is playing well, you don't notice he's there, such that if anyone asked you if he had a solid second half, you wouldn't be able to remember because he never did anything spectacularly good or bad. There is, in my opinion, absolutely no reason to panic, because we haven't had a losing season since 1991. I don't need to sit here and regurgitate the facts. But the point is, I could understand if people were being defeatist and calling for KH's head if we had a horrendous season, but the fact, is, we didn't. By all accounts it was a good season, if not miraculous. And we saw the future develop right before us that I believe will be our core for years to come. They might not contain the next D or Z, but let's face it, when those guys were rookies, did anyone ever envisage them turning into the stars they are today? The point is, this team didn't get any worse at all this offseason. In fact, it got better as the kids will have another year's worth of season and playoff experience, we;ll be healthy again (touch wood), and we subtracted some old worn out parts (Bertuzzi, Samuelsson - and hopefully Cleary but that remains to be seen). Oh yea, and we've got Mantha turning pro, and several kids in GR ready to step in and actually challenge for jobs in training camp. So why all the doom and gloom? There is actually a lot to like about this teams future.

But it is a rebuild, just of a different kind, because KH and co realised that they could break the mould, and actually re-tool on the fly and still remain competitive. Why the hell do we need a new coach? Babcock is arguably one of the top 3 coaches in the league right now. And we should replace him with Blashill? Who has how many years of NHL head coaching experience? WHy? Out of principle? Why should we trade Pavel and Hank away, when they have proven themselves time and time again? This team that we have right now is a better, deeper, younger team than that of only 2 years ago that put Chicago on the ropes. We've got better scoring depth, better youth. We have promoted the kids from GR. NOt all of them, but not all of them have shown that they are ready yet either. Hence why Mantha will most likely start in GR this season, and be the first recall. Why rush your prospects when they are not ready to the point where it stunts their development? And has actually, anyone here thought the last two seasons boring? The playoff run in 2013 was incredibly. Heartwrenching yes but it was a terrific ride. Just like this season and the battle against injuries and the rise of Gus and Tatar. For me, it speaks to how well this organisation is run, that even when the s*** hits the fan, we still make the playoffs because we draft so much better and develop so much better than the rest of the league.

Dallas Drake. Marian Hossa. Brad Stuart. Brian Rafalski. Dan Cleary (2007 version) Mikael Samuelsson (again, 2007 version). Daniel Alfredsson (had an excellent season IMO). Drew Miller. All players that were signed or traded for since the lockout that helped our team either make the playoffs or win a cup. I think that speaks for itself. And being a GM isn't just about signing or trading. It's ensuring that your players develop properly. I don't seem to remember the last time the Wings organisational rankings were even in the top 10, yet for some miraculous reason we are ranked number 2? Is that coincidence? Is it coincidence that under Holland's watch we've repeatedly drafted guys in the later rounds and been able to get them to be successful NHL players? And yes, you can harp on all you want about how drafting is down to the scouts. Fine. But developing them is just as much down to the GM as anything. In choosing the coaches he hires. In deciding when to bring those prospects to the next level. No one ever said KH was content in just making the playoffs. If he was content, why has he pushed so hard to sign guys this year? Why did he bother signing Weiss or Alfredsson. Was that because he saw a team that put Chicago on the ropes and thought, 'one or two more pieces and we might get to the next stage?' People are only rioting here because injuries ruined the season, and brought us down to a level we aren't used to. Think about for a minute, about the potential of this team, and the actual roster that has been carefully constructed over the years. I'd much rather be in Detroit right now than Toronto. Or anywhere else.

You know, it really amazes me how quickly everyone seems to just want to fire KH and blow up the ship. And because of what exactly? We re-signed a guy who played well for us in the second half and has a proven track record of being a solid 3-4 D man. So we didn't sign any big name free agents, and? Did we really want Boyle here for 3 years? No. Orpik for 5 years and $5.5m? No. Niskanen for 7 years? I didn't. Stralman for 5 years? No. The list goes on and on. Guys who are cashing in on one or two good years (besides Boyle) and using the thin market to drive up their prices. It is frankly, a joke. The worst thing the wings could have done was to sign someone like that for a massive term which locks us in, blocking the path for 1 or 2 kids when they are ready either this season or next. Why is it that we are so quick to lambast something that we don't like, yet it takes 100 things to satisfy us? I mean, for crying out loud, we're not the Leafs. It's not like we haven't won a cup in the last 50 years. And also, it's not even like we're not competitive anymore. This team was a playoff team. Granted, the last 2 years have been touch and go, but 2 years ago we took the cup champs to 7 and had them on the ropes. In that 2012-13 roster, there were 26 players who were part of this seasons roster. 26!!!!!!!! And this season, most were injured, and yet somehow, due to some strong play of guys who will form the future of this team, we made it in. There is, quite clearly, a rebuild in progress at the moment. And it amazes me how people can't seem to get excited about the future prospects of Dekeyser, Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, Jurco, Sproul, Marchenko, Ouellet, Mantha, Mrazek. Combined with a healthy D and Z and the other GOOD pieces we have on this team. So what's changed? Why has everyone become so despondent, when really, I think our time is coming right around the corner. Maybe not this year, but the year after for sure. If our kids continue trending upwards, we'll be right up there. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but to ignore the obvious positives that are emanating from this teams future and insist on throwing everything out in the trash just because we struck out on 1 day of the year is, in my eyes, nuts.

So re-signing one player (whom, while he had a shocking first half, had a very very solid second) means we are doomed to the annals of hell for a while? Seriously? This team was injury depleted and still made the playoffs. The emergence of the kids nullifies the signing of a solid stay at home defensemen. All I can say is meh. So we struck out in free agency today. Big deal. This team has more than enough to be optimistic about right now. Getting a known commodity won't hurt us. And yes I know, everyone here will say the Q sucks. And they'd be right about his first half performance, wrong about the second, in which he was one of our better blue liners

Dan Rosen ‏@drosennhl 1m Jim Nill announces on conference call the Stars signed Patrick Eaves to a 1-yr contract.

I'm glad we stood pat on this one. A guy who's had one good season gets a bucket load of money. Meh. I'd rather give Sproul and Ouellet a shot.

Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC 48s Niskanen 7 yrs, $40.25M with WASH

Craig Custance ‏@CraigCustance 59s Niskanen closing in on a deal with the Capitals.