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With team Delvecchio, I Agree with you that it definitely seems like Mantha and Jurco are going to get a shot with Datsyuk and Helm. It also seems like they are going to see if Andersson can be a good play making pivot with a couple skilled wingers in Pulky and whomever doesn’t play with 13. They also seem to have the 3rd D pairing in this group and that it seems like they are giving Marchenko a chance to take Kindl or Lashoff’s spot to play with DK. With team Howe, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are challenging Cleary with AA to play with Z and Franzen. Blashill seems to think the world of AA, maybe even enough to see if he can stick on a scoring line in the bigs as with Mantha. They have the grinder line with a combination of Miller/Glendening/Callahan/(either Cleary or AA). If AA isn’t ready, he’ll probably fill in with the GR line of Frk/Nosek/Tvrdon. I think it’s also interesting they have Sproul with this D group. I’d guess they want to give the kid a shot with either Kronner or E and if he isn’t ready to play in the top 4, he’ll most likely be in GR. With team Lindsey, I agree that this may be the most interesting juggling of forwards to see if they can shake out a 2nd/3rd line. I’d think the onus is on Abby and Weiss, 2 players who really don’t have a defined role on the team. Weiss for the reason we don’t know what his game is like with 2 years of injury. The boards definitely have a wide range of opinion on what Abby is eventhough Babs probably see him as a flexible player. My guess is the line will be Nyquist/Sheahan/Tatar to start, with Weiss pushing Sheahan and Abby pushing Tatar to see if they can make a scoring line. The other 2 left out will combine to Ferraro as a checking line for now. I wouldn’t put the D pair as Smith and Quincy right away. I can see mixing Ouellet and Beckman in there to see if they can stick as a top 4 as well. In terms of D, Marchenko may the only one they are willing to bring up at as 6th D where as they want the other 3 (Sproul, Ouellet, Beckman) to take a top 4 job or it’s back to GR to play tons of minutes. From the reading way too much into the lineup corner, they are definitely looking to create competition. Either way, will be interesting camp.

So with the wings just winning the cup, the puck moving defensemen will be a hot commodity this summer. Also since the wings have such a deep pool of reserve defensemen that can move the puck, such as Meech, Lebda, Erickson, Kindle, Smith, and Pyett, it might be a good time to move them for prospects in other positions. This is especially true for guys without anymore AHL options but are stuck in a 5-8 defensemen role on the wings like Lebda and Meech. Both could probably crack top 4 on other teams, Meech especially with the way he played in February when we only had the JV defense. So what do you guys think about what they might actually be worth around the league? I'd imagine we could get a few draft picks as high as 2nd rounder for them which would be a gain in value in terms of how we acquire these guys. And with the wing's staff, they are bound to find equal or better prospects and this will allow them to build more so for the future rather than clog up our defense corp and slowing down those kid's development.

I think a first round is a bit of stretch for Meech. Meech would be a little bit ahead of the players drafted in the first round in terms of NHL readiness, but it's not that much and the potential is greater for a guy taken in the first. Meech is older and not proven yet, though there are good signs of being a possible 3 or 4 defenseman. 1st rounds you hope will turn into top 2 and close to NHL right away. I think teams are more willing to trade picks where the players will need more development and more long term projects such as second and beyond.

Yea, I'm not sure how easy it is to trade prospect for prospect. The teams that would look to get these guys probably won't be in the best of shapes themselves, which means they are looking to hold on to their prospects now, who are more ready for success than draftees. This makes me think that it would probably be draft picks. With draft picks, its usually just 1st rounders that are really ready for duty right away and everyone else are projects. As for best option, I think the wings actually don't think the wings really need offensive prospects right away. Their front is mostly still developing and have a few guys coming in. Hudler and Filppula are still learning. They have guys like Abdelkader and Helm ready to take spots. Then they have Leino, the Finn FA coming over to try. So if you look at the roster, our forwards are pretty set for now with Z, Dat, Homer, Filppula, Hudler, Cleary, Mule, Draper, Maltby, Helm, McCarty, and Samuelson. Then you have Downey, Abdelkader, and Leino that can fill in. The prospect they would have to get would involve someone that still has years left in playing in the minors, college, or major juniors.

Yea, it would be one of those things that beneficial for all. If Stuart returns we are looking at 9 possible defensemen, well, Lilja would probably not be back then. You would have Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Lebda, Chelios, Meech, and Quincy. I actually wouldn't mind seeing both Lebda and Meech moved, especially seeing how we have Erickson ready. I think he has the most room for growth out of the group. I just think this year was a pretty much disaster in terms of Meech developing, he definitely deserves more time. I guess I'd trade Lebda over Meech because he might have more value and Meech has more room for growth. Lebda has pretty much gained the veteran status in the league and probably has some more value now that he has so much playoff experience.

If the wings drop to 2nd in the west and the rest of the top 5 stand as they are, it could be beneficial for the wings. If wings finish first, they would have to play Ducks or Sharks in the second round. But if the wings finish 2nd, they would face Wild in the 2nd round.

How did Anaheim win? They trusted the youth on their team and let them develop. They gave them top minutes and responsiblities and watched them grow. From McDonald to Penner to Getzlaf. Seriously who knew anyone on Anaheim's offense other than selanne before the last two years. Hudler showed he can score with the limited time he had and in the playoffs, he definitly wasn't afraid to jump into the scrums. Sure, he isn't great defensively but neither was Datsyuk. They challenged Datsyuk with the responsibly of playing on the PK and on the defense and Datsyuk learned. Put him next to Z or Datsyuk for a few games, with the passes he would get, he can get at least 30 or so goals in a season. Flippula was one of the best surprises the wings had in the playoffs. He is ready for top two line duty. Franzen has turned into a nice forechecker and with more development on the offensive end, he can become the next Holmstrom. It seems they were already preparing him in that role during the playoffs. The wings also have Grigorenko coming over. We'll see what he can do. And lets not forget the offensive juggernaut named Dan Cleary (ok, i kid, but he didn't do all that bad last year and definitely performed in the playoffs as to deserve some top two line consideration). Put these kids together with Z, Datsyuk, and Homer and you might have more than you think in your top two lines. The wings can also fill in the 4th line with some energy guys like Ellis, who play impressively during the time he was up here. The playoffs are about those energy guys that want it the most. It was Moen and Rob Niedermayer that made a lot of difference just like it was Maltby and Draper for us. And maybe Bootland might finally be in the line up providing the wings with that fighter everyone wants to see.

I don't really think there is much of a void to fill in the first play. Bertuzzi wasn't all that great in the playoffs and the wings had plenty of grit with them. Hudler may not a fighter but doesn't mean he can't contribute and fill in what the wings need, a shooter. If you are just looking for fighters, is there a place on your team for maltby, cleary, draper, and franzen? All Gritty guys and it doesn't mean they have to fight.

I believe avery is an RFA. He would be a nice energy guy to have but the Rangers will probably match the offer, he was outstanding for them in the playoffs. The wings are probably going to sign another forward for depth and energy. I guess some of the uncomfort is the unknown of how the kids will play, but i think they've showed enough to warrant a try. The wings won't have a problem making the playoffs, especially our division. You play them for half a year to see who sinks and floats. If you need to make changes you can do so at the trading deadline and you know which kids you can trade and which aspect of the your game you need to reenforce.

http://www.redwingscentral.com/features/orgchart.html This has the current salaries. You would have to add Hudler's and Hasek's plus an depth forward.

Grit doesn't necessarily mean size. It's combination of how much will you have and how tough you are, as in how much you can take a hit and bounce back or dish out hits. Its the scratching and clawing and doing the dirty work in the corners. The wings had been under estimated in that all playoffs in that and they had plenty. Zetterberg isn't good just because he is skill, he is good also because of his strength on the puck, doing the job in the corners and the wall and not letting up. And they are not afraid of scrums, not even little hudler who was in the middle of a few in the games he played during the playoffs. I'm not saying Bertuzzi wouldn't have added to it, but clearly the wings didn't need what he could bring enough to give out $8 mil for 2 years. That has to mean the wings are confident with what they have in those areas.

The reason we lost Bert is because we can rely on our youth. We let him go because we have young guy that can handle it so we aren't so needy to sign him for 4 mil a year.

A shooter would be nice but looking at what's out there, going with the line up might be better. Ellis is a UFA as well, he seems pretty high energied guy in the games he played last year. They could platoon Grigorenko and Ellis like they did this year with Kopecky and Filpulla early in the season last year.

Maybe it won't be. But you won't know in two year would you. You know what happened in case of Getzlaf, Perry, and Penner after the fact when they were given playing time. The kids on the wings can as well turn out to be them or they might not. You won't know unless you play them. Hudler might not be the same type of player as those three but it doesn't mean he won't have the impact of those 3. There is no doubt Hudler can shoot as his 14.02 shooting percentage this year shows (only Penner had higher this year out of those 3 and only at 14.22). The wing sorely needed a shooter this year for Z and Dat to pass to. How else does a scrub like samuelson score so many goals? As Hudler beginnings to be more responsible defensively, he will make a difference. It's definitely not energy he needs. He is like a little kid out there and he is not afraid to go to into the scrums. We live too much with our sports. hehe Really? After how well Guerin did with san jose?

It's really not that great of a loss. The toughness and grit Bertuzzi brings is not the same the wings system looks for. Bertuzzi carry the puck and is not the shooter that the wings really need. He appeared much like a bigger version of Lang at times in the wing's system. When the wings carry the puck in, they have guys like Datysuk and Zetterberg for it. When they dump and chase, they use their speed, pressure, and forechecking. Size is really necessary for that, though it may help. It doesn't take an overally powerful check to disrupt the defensive setup. Either way, Bertuzzi was too slow for the dump and chase and he isn't the shooter Datysuk and Z needs. They Wings could use his enforcing type, but he really isn't that guy especially after the Moore incident and why pay that much for it. He was one of those players it would be nice to have, but not really important. The only annoying thing is he goes to Anahiem. I don't think anyone like players going there since they just won and they just beat us.

Interesting about Rafalski, he is a right handed shot and fits in much better in our umbrella shooting PP. With Lidstrom, left handed shot, and Rafalski, points shots become much more natural than with Lidstrom and Schneider, who is also a left handed shot. Now they can shoot from both points rather than only from one and have to rotate if the other person wants to take the shot. The money and length are more than you'd like to see, but thats the market value. I'd say he said for a little below market value seeing the prices Flyers and Canadiens are throwing at their defensemen. The real question is if they needed this signing. It may bring in light on what they think of Kronwall's development. They might not think Kronwall is ready to take Lidstrom's spot once Lidstrom retires in a couple of years and Rafalski may serve as the gap until one of our younger defenseman take over. Rafalski isn't as good as Lidstrom but that's not saying much on how good he is. He has shown he can handle the top defenseman job in NJ. He does bring more toughness so he may serve as two in one as the wings were looking for toughness and a top powerplay guy.

Yea. I thought it was bad when they started to give away their hand on how much they wanted Hasek back. You can read everything i thought about that in an earlier reply to this post. I would have liked to see some of the money he gets going to bonuses. Some of his bonuses from last year a already counted against this years cap (something like if he plays a game he'll get 1 million dollars bonus, sure money he will get and goes to next year's cap). That's probably what they are hammering out now. It's not as matter of greed but what they want. If someone only wants to win a cup then they'll play for peanuts for a good team, but at the same time they also want to be well of for the rest of their lives and an extra couple million sure would help that. Sometimes the opportunities coincide; if neidermeyer retires and burke will pay schneider 5 mil, he would have every reason to go since ducks has a better team and they are giving him money. It's just balancing out what someone wants in this situation. All of us do that. "Loyalty" is really an arbitrary thing in pro sports. It's not that often you find plays gaining great deals of attachments to cities they play in, especially since they may just get dealt the next day. And even if they do, look at how much loyalty brought Maroth or even the sh*t Maltby catches on these boards. It's probably a lot easier for guys that grew up in Detroit to have full belief and patriotism in this areas, and even that just takes a back seat when the opportunity for a raise comes. It's just survival in this thing we call capitalism; there is no allegiances other than cash.

In the same respect, who else will pay hasek? If there is no marked for a 42 year old goaltender, well... the demanding price would drop. You are right, Giggy is much more in demand coming off a cup win and it the current hot stuff in hockey. Hasek... not so much. Most teams aren't looking for that stop gap as the wings are. Your company metaphor can be argued if you equate winning the cup is as a huge bonus. Then it becomes if you are willing to take a pay cut if it means your company can add some other assets that might help the chances of a huge (bigger than the amount you are giving up) bonus possible.

Thanks, it's good to know people agrees.

It's too bad Hasek wants so much but the wings really painted themself into a corner on that one. When you start saying from the start you want him back and you have your whole front office saying that, you really lose bargaining power. So, 2.5 mil is a bit much, but it's not going to break your team. The one thing is you still have to worry about injuries, so you may want a little for money to work with going into the season. Other than that, the rest of the free agents really aren't a big deal. The wings have the core guys there. The wings defence is solid even without Schneider or Markov. They didn't really miss a beat when Schneider got injured in the playoffs. Also, we will have Kronwall filling in on the point. The only reason Chelios even got on the pp last playoffs was because Kronwall was out as well. Markov brought some toughness but there are plenty of guys that and probably at a much reasonable price as free agency goes on. That's how we got Markov anyways. With the core and depth the wings have with kids like Meech, Quincy, Kindl, and Ericksson, they really can afford to wait and see. If they can pick someone up for cheap, then all the better. As for the forwards, they have their key guys in place and there is a lot of youth that can be developed there. Flippula and Huddler should have much bigger role. As Huddler develops more defense he should fill in exactly what they need, a pure shooter. The start of the season really saw to that as the hole left by Shanny was obvious. When Cleary is leading your team as top goal scorer (and he was at times in the season), you know you need more shooter. As the season went along, Z and Dats started to pick up more of that role, the wings offense were better. However, that's not what they do best and not their game. I'm also not counting samuelsson as a good shooter; he is just a scrub that's lucky to ride with Z or Dats getting all the nice passes. We have all these puck control guys with no one with a real wicked shot to pass to. Huddler has that shot and and be valuable once he develops other part of his game more. So they shouldn't worry all that much either. Having Bertuzzi back for 2 mil would be a good price but they have to reevaluate how they are using him. Sure he is big and can forecheck, but his game is puck control and using his body to control the puck. Also he is just horrible in front of the net as in deflections, he isn't that type of player. He needs to carry the puck, set up plays, and crash the net with the puck. He is the guy that carries it over with a guy draped all over him while running over another, not so much the dump and chase. He doesn't have the speed to keep up with that. If they sign smyth, it would be good depending on how much and how long they are giving him. Two Holmstroms is better than one and smyth has a better shot. However, you can't blow your entire cap in the future and not being able to sign Z, Filppula, or some of your young guys later. Everyone says they need two defenseman and a couple top 6 forwards, but really they don't need much. The thing everyone forgets is you have young guys you need to develop as well and they aren't going to just sitting on the bench. If Schneider, Markov, Bertuzzi leaves, the more opportunity it creates for young kids to step up and show what they are capable of. That in itself is also a bargaining chip, the wings don't desperately need any of them. They can afford to wait and fill in the pieces they might like to have at cheaper prices. I'm not the saying it wouldn't be nice to have on the team, there are other options.

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lol, taking a deep breath is right. 1) Yea, I’m all for both dropping tuition costs and cutting back on reqs (as I have yet to find a use for my 16 credits of German I took). But universities follow capitalistic mind set as well to gain funding for their prestige rather than capital. But that’s another story. Students do study a lot, but that’s not all they do at all. Look at the turnout University of Michigan gets for its football games. In comparison, the amount the wings tickets costs is just a bit less than what I paid before for my UM football season tickets as a student. Yes, and in this free market, you are investing in a specific team and the owners of that team see the benefit in investing in small market teams to try and increase those market sizes. This of it this way, in a big market team the fan base is well establish and the game of hockey are already integrated into the way of life. So, the money you invest in the area won't be as effective as investing in an area where people haven't had the exposure to the game of hockey and haven't really had a chance to like the game. There is more room to improve the small market and better chance of increasing your investment in a small market rather than on that's well developed as well. Businesses invest in partners all the time. Sure if the big market teams see the monetary gains in their own cities are starting to drop, they will seek to invest more into their own cities. But seeing how much Toronto and Montréal suck and the strong loyalty of those markets still strong, it just doesn't seem necessary. 2) Who would you trust to invest money, a business person who studies it as a job or some teacher? I don't know all the details of Essex school system, but the teachers union or the person they selected with their freedom as a group to run their bonds and stuff could found it more profitable to invest in the Leafs. If the teachers aren't happy with their bond investments, they are free to simply change though a demand in their union or something to that effect. Perhaps the investment with the school district chooses is just the default investment option and they can change otherwise if they don't like it. And since they are still with the school, it could be they are happy with the return they receive. I do say, I'm just theorizing because I don't know the specifics of the issue. If they are really "Forced" then yea, heads should roll. 3) As I said in one, the owners are investing in other markets as well. If Atlanta’s small market becomes huge as they are winning more and drawing more people and establishing a greater fan base, the small market can become potentially a greater market than Detroit as the population of Atlanta is far greater. Especially now since their NBA team has been blowing chunks, it might be a good idea to invest there. If all the small market teams grow the Illitchs will eventually see their money back plus money from those growing markets that may surpass that of the wings. As you mentioned, salary limits will also increase with the more the league earns. So if other teams are doing better the cap will also go up for the wings so they can continue to better their team as well to stay in their market. 4) I agree that the more loyal fans you have, the more you could make. But each loyal fan still has a limit of how much they are willing to pay to go to a game. And a business decision is to push to that mark where you can sell as many tickets at the amount that will maximize the total money you make. So if you raise your ticket prices to 100 dollars from 90, and you go from a sell out of 20k people to 19.5k attendance, you will make more money with the 100 dollar ticket and 19.5k attendance, $1950k versus $1800k (sell out). The point of business is to find that point where you make the most. And the more loyal your fans are the higher amount they will pay for a ticket, which allows you to raise the price more and still get the highest attendance to maximize profit. With big market teams you can push that higher. You are also right in that you can't force people to like the game. I think the position of hockey or at least the horrible business man named bettman, believe that the reason the markets in the south are small is because there is that they aren't exposed to the game or a good team yet. But owners are starting to see that people really don’t have an interest for hockey in places like Atlanta and Nashville, which is why they are putting in last ditch efforts to put a good team on the ice and see if it draws any further interest in the game to make them bigger markets. The cap allows the NHL to test the markets in those places to see if they can grow. I'm all for moving both of those teams to cities like Quebec and Winnipeg again. 5) What I was insinuating is the nationalism and belief in a cause greater than just the individual required in communism, which is the idea as the faith and loyalty one has to a sports team. So I meant my loyalty for a sport team is not as high in comparison to my capitalistic mind set of business decision making. But I guess I or anyone else for that matter wouldn't mind free games either. I agree you need big markets as that's what business is all about, finding the big markets and increasing the markets. What the league is trying to do along with all the owners in increase the global market as a whole through investment in potential markets or markets that could possibly grow. There is only such a limit market in Detroit and it's shrinking with all the people moving out of the state. So the NHL needs to find markets that can grow as well, and for Illitches, it would be a good idea to expand their investments than just hockey in Detroit to hockey all over. Lastly, go wings! John

I don't mean to offend as I found this rant quite interesting, but I have some counterpoints. 1) If society is truly communist, all these poor college students would be given a chance to go and we wouldn't have this thread. Granted, it might have been once in few games, but it's more than the 0. 2) Does it matter who Essex county school district is investing in as long as they are making money? Isn't that what matters under pure capitalism? As far as I can tell, the Leafs are pretty profitable. No matter how bad they are, you'll always find people buying up tickets and swags. 3) The profit sharing plan and the cap is in fact a capitalistic movement for the NHL as a whole. The Illitchs and all the other powerhouse owners agreed to instate a cap and profit sharing. By increasing the viewership and interest in hockey in markets that aren't great like majority of the US, all the owners gain money. So, it's an investment. 4) The business and capitalism doesn't necessarily mean holding a sellout streak, not if it means getting the max profit. So if you can make more money by raising the prices and the lower turnout still makes more money than a lower ticket price and full turnout, then it's all good. 5) And lastly in accordance to the business decision, going to the game just isn't good business from the individual standpoint. It requires too much of me financially to pay 100 dollars when I can satisfy my desires watching the game. I'd love to be a good communist and support the cause and team spirit in person, but I’m just too selfish for that. John

The refs weren't great but overall the wings played so sloppy. It was hard to watch this game at all and they are lucky to have gotten two goals. It didn't help the ice was horrible. The only thing really entertaining about this game was that huge hit by cleary.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylt=ArxG...o&type=lgns Here is the schedule for the first week.