Zetts

From the main page of Mlive right below the article saying Miller is injured:

Yes. And that leaves us with 12 healthy forwards as the quote says. If you read the article, you'll see that we need another injury (i.e. so we're unable to dress 12 forwards) to call Tatar up.

Tatar can't be called up. http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/04/red_wings_forward_drew_miller.html

This is a joke, right?

This isn't what I was saying though. My point has never been that those were particularly good moves or that I wanted them here in the first place. My argument is around the logistics of claiming that it's wise to ditch 6 players (including your backup goaltender) to get one star player. He's claiming that there's no difference becaues we knew they'd be injured anyways. I'm claiming, in response, that it's dishonest to look at players that you observe to be injured ex post and say that. Put this way, I can see where you're coming from. I think you're expecting a bit too much of Holland, but I see what you're saying.

Given that I've been the most vocal about my distain for that play, I'll assume this is largely directed at me. And I completely agree - this is no way makes him mediocre as a goalie. He's still our MVP of the season in my eyes.

You actually are spot-picking injured players with your complaints. Prior to ONE season with injury, Samuelsson played 73, 81, 74 and 75 games. Bertuzzi, prior to this year, played 82, 81 and 71 games. Nobody "knew" they'd be injured. Colaiacovo I'll give you because...well...that's impossible to argue. As for Huskins, he was necessary at the time. He wasn't a bad off-season signing. We were just running into a pile on injuries early in the season. Replacing Gustavsson isn't really possible while saving money - you need a back-up. Tootoo, while perhaps slightly overpaid, brings an element we need as a 12/13 forward. You can't just dump a pile of roster players and say, "see, now we could get a star."

Leaving us with: Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Franzen Tootoo - Helm - Abdelkader Tatar - Anderson - Nyquist Miller (if he's re-signed) - Emmerton - Eaves Inspiring. I agree that we need big changes this offseason. But people expecting a massive overhaul in which we ditch every single one of those players will be sorely disappointed. It's just not feasible to make all of those changes in one off-season and do them WELL.

If St. Louis can beat Dallas tomorrow, we're actually in ok shape.

4-1 Dallas now. Seems like they really want to be in the playoffs.

He's not even halfway back from the boards to the goal line when the puck is in the net. That's not giving a crap. I could move faster than that. Edit: I counted. He bothered to take 1 single step.

I'm not worried about a bad game. Nor do I deny that he's the reason we're competing the playoffs. Completely giving up in the way and in the circumstances that he did (the circumstances of the play, the point in the game and the point in the season) is inexcusable. Screwing up is human. Not giving a crap is pathetic. Especially when you were just signed to a contract worth how many million? If you're not sure what I'm talking about, check out 2:45 of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2z5d0Tkrcs Note the COMPLETE lack of effort. Further, and I don't know how I missed this before, you're the one that started this thread titled "Howard = Average" and when I criticize him for one ridiculous play, you're saying that I should let it go?!

He sure as hell didn't look like he was trying to validate his worth on that third goal. He didn't make the slightest effort to get back in the net. Again, I like Howard, but that was pathetic.

Oh, I definitely agree with that. You have no argument from me on that one at all. Edit: You'll note that in my earlier posts, not only did I say that I want both on this team, I even suggested Nyquist be in the top 6. To expand on that though, I'd only want him in that role if we have some bigger guys in the top 6 as well, because as Kip pointed out, a potential future top 6 using 6 of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Franzen, Tatar, Brunner and Nyquist lacks a lot of elements.

This. We have the problem that we had back when were getting knocked out early in the playoffs between 2002 and 2008. We're always on the outside and the chances are low quality. Except now, in contrast to that time, we also don't really have much talent to speak of.

At his role? Yes, I do think he's one of the best. He's obviously not going to put up 80 points, but he's extremely valuable. I'm shocked I even have to discuss that point. So you'd like Lucic but don't think it will happen. Allow me to summarize your view as I understand it (and please correct any inaccuracies): Get rid of: Helm, Filppula, Cleary, Samuelsson, Bertuzzi (but maybe keep him if we have to, although you wouldn't like it). Let me know if I'm missing anyone. Bring in: Nyquist, Tatar. Yeah, that would make me feel much better about next season. My point is, it's easy to complain (and I certainly understand your frustration). But if you're going to talk about ditching a pile of people, it would be nice to perhaps suggest a way to improve the team? Do you perhaps now see more why I'm frustrated that you get angry when I suggest we keep one player? Certainly some people have to go, but we can't re-make our team over night.

Exchanging Sammy for Brunner doesn't suddently transform us from kids to an old, injury-prone team. Have some common sense. We need a lot of things. But we can't just throw half the team out the window and replace them with the types of players that you want. That means strategically keeping some players too. I also dislike that you throw Helm into that group. He's easily one of the best players on this team. He's had some pretty bad luck, but I wouldn't consider him "injury prone". As opposed to just arguing in circles about points though, we can keep it a bit more to the point: please outline your ideal roster for next year, including the new players that could realisitically be coming in. I think we can all agree that Cleary, Bertuzzi, Samuelsson and Filppula have been disappointing. But then we have to replace them. Nyquist and Tatar, while great to have, are only two people, and at least one of them has already been on the team pretty much all season anyways. And here we are.

Some of them are injured. Yes, you've specifically chosen some of the injured players. Now what happens when we lose 6 players for 1 and start getting injuries next year?

But you do actually have to have players filling roster spots... It's not like you can subtract all of those players, add a star and then think your roster is fine. You're talking about losing 6 players for 1. One of which is our backup goalie.

I'll start off by saying that I don't think we'll aquire both (or likely either) of the players you mentioned, just because we haven't exactly had luck around here with our free agent wishes. In such a case, it's not so much of an issue anyways. But on your roster, the numbers aren't too far off for Samuelsson working. Your roster had $1.7M in cap space and I don't see Brunner getting $2.5M. I'm also iffy about Bertuzzi returning. The fact is, prior to last season, Samuelsson had 4 consecutive seasons with a run of 40, 40 53 and 50 points. And he's decent defensively. Brunner isnt' so great defensively and it's very uncertain how he is offensively. He should probably work in from the fourth line (Tootoo's spot) and maybe get higher playing time in the case of injuries. If we had to choose between keeping one or the other, I *might* come around to your side on keeping him over Sammy, but it's definitely not as clear-cut as you make it out to be. Tootoo isn't an every night player because frankly he's just not that good. He brings some energy, which is nice. I like having that type of player. But he's not consistent enough, or smart enough with the puck, etc. He's not a regular.

No, I don't see it that way. There's a few different things that lead to me to want to keep him: 1. Brunner is very much an unknown. Right now Samuelsson would be better than him. I wouldn't mind seeing Nyquist in the top 6 and a third line of Sammy-Helm-Tatar. Or something to that effect. 2. Tootoo isn't someone who will play every night. 3. If this season is any indication, there will be plenty of injuries. I'd hardly be heartbroken if he left, but I'm just saying it might be worth considering keeping him around.

If he's slotted properly, I'd want Samuelsson in there. Specifically, on the third line. Yeah, he can be frustrating, but he does score, he plays a simple game and is decent defensively. Getting a scoring push from our third line would be great. When we won the cup in '08, our third line a lot of the time was Sammy/Fil/Hudler. It was probably the best third line in the league. Edit: And hopefully he can stay healthy. WTF is up with that this year? I don't recall him having injuries like that when he was here before.

Does anybody really believe that desirable players will be part of any team's salary dump? Maybe a couple of second tier players, but nothing of the quality you're describing. If he seriously gave up on a season to get more fluffy filler, I will be pissed.

I imagine I'll get blasted for even mentioning that Cleary didn't always suck, but essentially what you're really saying is that we need someone to replace Cleary from when he played well. Which he really did at one point. He was exactly that sort of player that we so badly need right now. Of all of the pieces we've lost, I think people fail to acknowledge that he didn't always suck, and his descent has actually hurt us a lot. Then add to that Bertuzzi's injury and Franzen's...whatever you want to call it....and I think you see where the problem stems from. Edit: Oh, and Holmstrom.

Of course, for that to even be considered in the first place, Babcock would have to acknowledge that there's a problem. Exhibit A: