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#2319866 Red Wings re-sign Quincey: 2-years, $7.55m total, $3.775/yr

Posted by StormJH1 on 18 July 2012 - 04:20 PM

They backed themselves into a corner on this one. This is the type of move nobody cares about when you're 16 million under the Cap, but if he were the last guy signed on a team just under the Cap, everybody hates the contract. But they obviously were going to resign him after moving a 1st on an RFA rental, plus they just don't have anybody else.

Look, I'm giving Quincey a chance, but literally, I've never heard anyone come up with a justification for his game that doesn't assume he learned something from being in the "Detroit system" when he came up. Except he wasn't that great the first time around. He's not an exceptionally good puck mover and he's big but doesn't hit. He's not a PP quarterback, and he certainly wasn't considered as defensively responsible as guys like Kronwall and Stuart, yet he basically has the cap hit of Franzen for 2 years. So...what IS he, exactly?

The brutal truth is that if this guy had started his career anywhere else and put up those numbers, Wings fans would think this was a terrible signing.

#2319690 Red Wings Rebuilding and Adapting to Maintain Dominance

Posted by StormJH1 on 18 July 2012 - 08:05 AM

The Wings are not in a "rebuilding phase". I'm not saying it would be inconceivable that we might be rebuilding in a few years if the Euro Twins decline and we have failed to replace them with at least one elite Top 6 forward, but this team meets none of the criteria of a rebuilding team. They don't have the base of young (as in early 20's) talent to look to the future, and they aren't making moves for the future at the expense of today. The Tootoo and Sammy moves (like them or not) confirm that Holland is not in a rebuild mindset.

I look at our forwards vs. defensemen debate in two ways:

(1) The lack of another Top 4 defenseman is the biggest threat towards the Wings keeping the playoff streak alive. In other words, while the team is still good, if the bottom falls out for this team, it will almost certainly be because the defense suddenly became terrible without 28 minutes of Lidstrom and 25 minutes of Stuart every night.

(2) On the other hand, the lack of 1 or 2 additional scoring forwards is probably the biggest limiting factor that has our potential maxed as a 1st or 2nd round playoff exit. In other words, the team is probably good enough to get there, but we lack the explosiveness on offense to overcome younger opponents dedicated to blocking shots and playing strong team defense in the playoffs.

So they both needs, in my view. It's not like we have an open choice to pick one or the other. A forward move raises our ceiling without protecting the floor. A defenseman addition would improve my confidence that this team continues to play a Red Wings type of hockey, but doesn't fix the problems that have gotten us knocked out of the playoffs since '09.

#2318674 Are Russian players "really" lazy

Posted by StormJH1 on 12 July 2012 - 02:24 PM

First, no, it's absolutely not true. But a lot of adult hockey fans in the 80's and 90's were bred with that Cold War mentality, and misinterpreted the playing styles of some of the Russians who defected at that time. Any stereotype based on an entire nationality of players is obviously unfair - Konstantinov and Darius Kasparatis were extremely rugged players who just happened to share the same nationality as guys like Alex Kovalev. But if you ever watch European soccer, there are just cultural difference in sport that Americans will not accept. For example, American athletes fully accept doing anything to gain an edge (bending the rules, steroids in baseball, trying to hurt opponents), yet diving or embellishing injury of any kind is a violation of the "man code" and completely dishonorable. In other countries, however, this is seen as a "trying to get an edge", really no different than stepping out of bounds but failing to correct a referee who doesn't make the call.

Still, the "soft" or "lazy" accusation gets imputed to the whole when North American fans see something like this:

I never though that Fedorov was "soft" or that Kozlov was "lazy", but I heard that all the time. There was a famous Sergei Fedorov quote where he said if his name were "Sam Jones", he would be considered a much bigger star than he was. There's been this tacit requirement that the bar for Russian players is much higher in the NHL (and still is). In other words, if you're Jordin Tootoo or Cal Clutterbuck and spend most of your time scrapping and running people in corners, North American players are romanticized for doing that, while a Russian who did that but couldn't score probably couldn't even stay in the NHL.

I think it's getting noticeably worse for Russian players in the NHL, and the KHL is a prime reason for that. Nobody wants to make a long-term commitment to these guys when there's always the threat that they'll pull a Radulov or Hudler and end up back overseas. I think that's a legitimate concern for would-be employers, but we can do with out the Don Cherry-style xenophobia.

#2318595 Holland Content with Current Roster

Posted by StormJH1 on 12 July 2012 - 11:23 AM

I almost believe that Weber would sign with Detroit out of pure spite. Wishful thinking on my part perhaps but isn't he pissed off at Suter for leaving? Not to mention he and David Poile aren't on the best of terms...

I'm hearing he's not happy. What that means, who knows. Perhaps he's also willing to ride out whatever happens with another year in NAS, seeing these massive paydays. I was interested in this RFA topic so I did some research (Why is there no Shea Weber thread? I created one awhile ago, and it was quickly deleted. Can't fathom why Shea Weber is an inappropriate topic, but we need a thread for the Wojtek Wolski signing. Anyway...)

These are the known offer sheets since the lockout:

Ryan Kesler Sept 12, 2006 [4] 1 year, $1.9 million Vancouver Canucks Philadelphia Flyers Matched - Thomas Vanek July 6, 2007[22] 7 years, $50 million Buffalo Sabres Edmonton Oilers Matched - Dustin Penner July 26, 2007 5 years, $21.5 million Anaheim Ducks Edmonton Oilers Accepted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in 2008 David Backes July 1, 2008 3 years, $7.5 million St. Louis Blues Vancouver Canucks Matched - Steve Bernier July 8, 2008 1 year, $2.5 million Vancouver Canucks St. Louis Blues Matched - Niklas Hjalmarsson July 9, 2010 4 years, $14 million Chicago Blackhawks San Jose Sharks Matched -

There is some sort of "taboo" culture against them in the NHL. I think part of it is the "gentleman's culture" and the fear of retribution, but as this HFBoards poster explains, there are other concerns:

If the player, his agent, or one of the two GMs involved doesn't tell the media, no one knows. If an offer sheet goes unsigned, it does no one any good to let the media know, so outside of those 4 or so people, no one ever knows.

The reason offer sheets aren't more frequently successful is that they're self defeating. If you offer sheet a player, their controlling team has the opportunity to match. That means if you want to sign the player away, you need to offer more money than the controlling team is willing to match. On top of this, you also have to give up draft picks (which you'd need to have the right ones in the first place) to acquire the asset. Most of the time it just works out better to try make a trade with the team for slightly greater than the offer sheet compensation so you can sign the player at a more reasonable salary.

Okay, so let's sort this out - Weber is around $7.5 million averaged salary, so compensation would be two 1st's, a 2nd, and a 3rd rounder. I believe the Wings still have those 2013 picks, correct? The Wings offer some massive deal, say, 12 years/$105 million ($8.75 million cap hit) and front-load the crap out of it. If NAS could match that, wouldn't they already have offered it? Do we really care about losing those picks if the payoff is SHEA WEBER?

And if Nashville did somehow match, we've really lost nothing except for the assumption that Weber might have signed with us next season anyway, instead of the 28 other teams. I think it would be pretty arrogant of Holland to just assume that Detroit is automatic destination that can lure anyone away from PIT, PHI, or any other decent up-and-coming team with cap room.

#2318590 Sal Galatioto Predicts NHL Cap & Floor Dropping

Posted by StormJH1 on 12 July 2012 - 11:07 AM

I don't see what the big deal is. If the cap drops, player salaries will drop accordingly, there should be no issues with having to drop players to get under the cap. It is completely different than last time. Last time around, player salaries were cut by 24% (existing contracts) and yes, some teams had to cut players to get under the cap, but that is because they were operating under a pre-cap world and they may have been paying way over the cap in salaries. Going from one cap world to another shouldn't not impact anything, reduction in salaries across the board should take care of any issues.

How would it screw over the GMs? The players agreed to a 24% rollback last time and players salaries are a lot higher now then they were pre-rollback, so a small rollback doesn't seem completely illogical.

I fundamentally do not understand why we need a salary rollback when the cap itself has almost doubled over 8 seasons. It went from $39.0 million to $70.2 million. Heck, the salary FLOOR is significantly higher now than the Cap was in 2005-06...so how does it make any sense that we need to roll back player salaries?

The problem is that the CBA was shoddily conceived and GM's found several ways to game the system. Since the cap hit is determined as an average of the salaries (not the actual salary for this year), you saw tons of long-term, front-loaded deals. Which means that while the Cap may be $70 million, teams may actually be paying $80 million, $90 million, whatever in salaries.

Also, while the CBA might have envisioned salaries going down across the board, that isn't what happened. Top FA's were pursued as aggressively as ever, even pushing mid-tier guys like Mike Cammalieri into "star" value contracts. Also, the league became significantly younger, as teams compensated for this by filling out their rosters with entry-level contracts (see: Blackhawks, Chicago). I think a lot of the veterans lost money too (or were forced to Europe for more money) because of this approach to the Cap.

#2317660 Rumor/Report: Semin to sign 1yr deal with Pens

Posted by StormJH1 on 10 July 2012 - 10:14 AM

Anybody in this thread who said "Holland is sitting on his hands" because he didn't get _______ player is either ignorant or not a Wings fan that pays any attention. Do we fire every GM except for the one in Minnesota for not signing Suter and Parise, who obviously had made up their mind to play there irrespective of (more) money or franchise track record?

Everybody take a deep breath, let this play out and evaluate by training camp. Seriously, free agency opened July 1st, but Doan, Semin, and other FA's aren't even signed yet, and a trade could happen at any time.

Jeez, I know you're frustrated/worried, but the number of "smart" things Holland has done in the past 5 years WAY outweighs the number of failed/misguided moves during that time:
  • Re-signing stars to manageable long-term deals
  • Circumventing the cap and getting away with it before it became "illegal"
  • Recycling useful veterans while other desparate teams
  • Drafting, developing, and retaining a borderline elite goaltender (Howard) at about 1/3 of the cap hit of other "elite" goalies
  • The Hossa 1-year deal (a low risk, high reward opportunity that got us all the way to Gm 7 of the Cup Finals)
  • Despite terrible draft position for the past 20 years, finding guys like Brendan Smith (#27 pick), Tatar (#60), and Nyquist (#121) that look like potentially very good NHL players, especially for where they were drafted.
  • Developing young role players (Helm, Abdelkader, Miller, etc.) that keep the Wings as one of the deeper teams in the league
If we don't get Doan, I'm not going to burn down Joe Louis Arena. If we don't sign Semin or make a high impact trade, I will be more disappointed, but jeez, try not to be a spoiled brat - there are worse things than being a Red Wings fan in 2012-13.

#2317235 Buck Wild?

Posted by StormJH1 on 09 July 2012 - 08:49 AM

I have lived in Minnesota for the last 9 years and actually have followed the Wild as a "2nd team", so I've seen and followed more of this team than most. This fan base is very knowledgeable about the sport of hockey, but extremely delusional and under-informed about the NHL (in my opinion). Jacque Lemaire and Doug Risebrough (former GM) did this fan base a great disservice by ushering in a boring trap style of hockey for years, which was especially ill-equipped to deal with the post-lockout style of play.

If the question is whether this Wild team scares me, the answer is "no", at least not any more than any other playoff contender in the West. After being the hottest team in the NHL through December, this team was TERRIBLE for the rest of the year. And they didn't even have a sufficient excuse. They entered last season with the lowest payroll on defense in the league ($14 million, IIRC) and they are still young, undersized, and lacking depth. They swapped Schultz for Gilbert, but neither of those guys are legitimate Top 2 defensemen. Suter obviously gives them a centerpiece, but keep in mind that virtually everything he did was with the assistance of Shea Weber playing next to him. Defensemen, like goaltenders, are extremely vulnerable to their situation, and while Suter is very good (and I wanted him on the Wings), I don't think he's a Pronger or Chara-like building block that can completely turn around a defense. We'll see.

The Wild are now up against the cap and have the most expensive forward corps in the NHL. That's unbelievable to me. The problem is that there are some pretty bad long-term contracts in there (Koivu $6.7 mil, Heatley $7.5 mil, PMB $4 mil). Heck, even $3 or $3.5 mil for Setoguchi and Cullen is a bit much for what you get. They get some more of those deals off the books next offseason, and Mikael Granlund is expected to be star quickly, but we haven't SEEN any of these young guys produce in the NHL yet.

I think you could fairly say that the Minnesota Wild are "better positioned for the future" than the Detroit Red Wings right now. But keep in mind that the Minnesota Wild have done nothing BUT position themselves for the future since Fletcher took over as GM, since they have failed to put a winning team on the ice during that time.

I think they could potentially be a team with a lot of firepower, but until they've established some kind (any kind) of track record, I wouldn't bet them against Detroit. Their defense is still garbage. Even with Suter, I don't think I would trade their unit for ours, and Detroit has obvious problems in that department.

#2315311 Holland comments on Suter & Parise going to Wild

Posted by StormJH1 on 04 July 2012 - 09:09 PM

I don't think there was anything Holland could have done differently and to be honest, I'm glad he offered what he felt those players were worth and not what the market said they should get. Sure, we don't get the big name free agents, but in the long run one of our keys to success is not overpaying for players. Z, Datsyuk, Franzen, Kronwall and Howard are well below what they could be getting on the open market.

The "we've got all summer" comment was for people that act like the season starts tomorrow. We have the next three months to trade and/or sign UFAs. Just because we didn't get Parise and Suter doesn't mean the holes we need to fill won't be filled now. Instead of getting Parise, maybe we get Semin and Doan. Instead of Suter, we get Yandle and Scott Hannan.

Amen. I'm bummed, but this game was rigged from the start. Plus, there are other moves they could make that could help and leave us with less cap burden. Is Ray Shero a garbage GM? What about the other 28 teams that didnt get these two? That seems a bit unfair.

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#2315182 The Next Move

Posted by StormJH1 on 04 July 2012 - 07:16 PM

Parise, in many ways, was a Hossa-like luxury, not a dire need. I realize this team has scoring problems and an upgrade would have been nice, but with Brunner, Nyquist and all the returning guys, it wasn't like there was a Lidstrom-sized hole to fill at forward.

Losing Suter, however, does hurt. But he's gone. I think Brendan Smith is a player. A trade for Ryan would be great, but if Franzen/Filppula can be flipped into a Top 2 defenseman instead, I would love so sign Semin and get D help that way.

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#2313650 Suter Watch: Decision today, down to Wings/Wild

Posted by StormJH1 on 03 July 2012 - 01:43 PM

Please sign now and just have everyone shut up about this, especially Minnesota media, fans, and just straight up random people talk about Suter and Praise is straight up disgusting to listen to. Fans think if they get both, should my as well hand them the cup and skip to next year season (although they say this every damn year lol), media thinks since Praise was born here he should play here (umm.. no? Get a better reason), and my favorite random ass people who think they know what there talking about. Like for example, this morning listening to a radio show here in town and they're talking about this whole thing. The guy knew what he was talking about because his son plays hockey on my cousin team so he is pretty knowledgeable to the whole thing but the girl had no idea wtf he or probably even she was saying. She was more focus on trying to bring them 2 here on her "looks"? :shock: .

THANK YOU! I live in the western suburbs of the Twin Cities, and I'm seriously going to lose some Minnesota friends over this!

Since I relate everything in Minnesota back to the movie "Fargo", basically the whole state thinks they're the know-it-all banker father-in-law/grandpa ("No Jean, no money!") with old-school hockey connections...when in fact they're all Jerry Lundegaard.

Folks, Minnesotans have been talking for MONTHS like this was a done deal, and obviously Zach wanted to come home and lead the Wild to their inevitable Cup. Few problems there:

(1) It hasn't happened yet! Money doesn't seem to be an issue here, so even if he does sign with MIN, it's pretty obvious he thought damn hard about NJ, PIT, and several other teams.

(2) Parise is not a blind Minnesota homer. As evidence of that fact, he played his college hockey at NORTH DAKOTA! If Zach Parise based his entire life around what the average Minnesotan wanted, he wouldn't have gone and played for the biggest rival the University of Minnesota has in college hockey.

(3) Your team sucks. Sorry, it just does. As strong as you believe your fanbase to be, the organization has been terribly run and has two freaking Playoff series wins in their entire existence. (The fanbase bit is a big lie, by the way, as the "Team of 18,000" here is, at best, a cult following. The Wild generate zero buzz here, and coverage is swallowed by anything Vikings and Twins. Even their TV ratings are decidedly middle-of-the-pack among other U.S markets).

Nevertheless, it's been months and months of coverage and anticipation that Parise is going to sign with this team that missed the Playoffs by 14 points last year. Please make it stop.

#2313456 Still no decision from Suter. Speculation abounds.

Posted by StormJH1 on 03 July 2012 - 09:19 AM

I really, really want Suter but not sure it's going to happen for happen for some reason. Semin I want to give a shot to but for a two year deal not one year. I dont want a Hossa esk situation to happen...

Comments like this make me so ANGRY! What is a "Hossa-esque" situation, exactly? You're telling me if Semin scored 40 goals in 74 games with excellent two-way play (as Hossa did), and we only had to commit money for one season, you'd be pissed?

Hossa was a mercenary. That was the whole POINT of signing him. If Nick Lidstrom's last second shot happens to sneak by M-A Fleury and the Wings happen to win that one Game 7 in overtime, what would you think of the 08-09 team then? Hossa had 6 G and 9 A in the '09 Playoffs and didn't miss a game even though his shoulder was completely shredded. Datsyuk missed several games, came back and had only 1 G and 8 A in 16 games, yet I've never heard one person call out Pavel for "disappearing" in the '09 Playoffs.

There have been great players that have played hard for this organization, only to have the fanbase poop all over them the second they're out the door. To varying degrees, the names Chevelade, Fedorov, Coffey, Primeau, Osgood (in '01, before he came back), Joseph, Legacy, and (the worst one) Fedorov all come to mind. It's not a prerequisite as a fan to smear every former Red Wing, yet it happens on this forum far too often.

Not every player can be Steve Yzerman or Nick Lidstrom. Some players are signed not to be career Red Wings, but to serve a very specific role for a short period of time. If Parise doesn't work out (seems unlikely to come here) and we address the defense with Suter or a trade, I'm at least willing to consider a reasonable deal for Semin as an option. He's not going to kill THIS coach. The Russians have a almost Larionov-like level of respect for Datsyuk (listen to Geno Malkin talk about him), whereas Ovechkin is viewed as a talented clown. Keep your options open.

#2310332 Shanahan snubbed from HoF induction

Posted by StormJH1 on 27 June 2012 - 08:02 AM

It doesn't make ANY sense to me that Shanny be behind Sundin, but the votes are ambiguous in nature so.. whatever. Shanny should make it next year.

As far as the Wings' organization number retirement and the discussion of specific players:

14: Obviously Shanahan's number is not retired, and I'm ambivalent about whether I think it should or shouldn't be. He was a backbone of the Wings team for several years, second scoring in his position behind Luc, 600+ goals and 3 cups.. hard not to make the case, but he's obviously no Lidstrom or Yzerman, they set the bar very high. I wouldn't mind either way.

91: Sergei Fedorov number not retired, nor should it be. He had a number of great years with the Wings but he had three major issues.. 1) several contract disputes, the last ended his tenure with the team on a very sour note because of the impact it had on the Wings ability to sign other UFA's given how long and drawn out it was, 2) while few would doubt when he tried he was amongst the best players in the league, he would have a tendency to just float around and put out little effort which was an enormous criticism of him in the late 90s/early 2000s, 3) probably more subjective than other two, the impression I got that he was irritated about not being captain, which played into the contract disputes and excessive floating.

First, Shanny is definitely a Hall of Famer, but the voting is messed up (Doesnt Doc Emrick have a vote?) and this was a very strong class. I assume he's in next year and this is all but forgotten.

But on the number retirement, totally disagree. I'm not sure why it's forgotten that Fedorov was an important part of the Wings becoming a dynasty before Shanny was traded here. Shanny was not a "career Red Wing" either, yet people get mad at Fedorov for leaving as opposed to signing what would have invariably been a bad contract for an aging superstar. Wings fan pretend like the '95 Final didnt happen, but Fedorov was an MVP caliber player at that time.

Also, the "floating around" garbage is more based in North American xenophobia than fact. Fedorov was an ELITE defensive player who happened to be one of the most dangerous offensive forces in the league. He even played defense on several occasions (including the Fight Night at the Joe game). Could you imagine Bure or Shanny skating backwards playing D? The guy could do it all.

I'm fine with neither 14 or 91 being retired, but you can't retire 14 w/o also considering 91 and 30.

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#2309568 Ken Holland

Posted by StormJH1 on 24 June 2012 - 09:49 PM

Some very insightful comments in here...

I think that Holland's "legacy" was already cemented by the '08 Cup. To me, that Cup was so essential in shaking the label that the Red Wings were the Yankees of the NHL. To replace a generation of players like Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanny, etc. without the aid of high draft picks or limitless spending proved that there was more to the Wings than just money.

I get a little annoyed when people refer to any move that doesn't result in a Cup as a failure. Like Hossa in '09. Hossa carried the team through an inconsistent regular season, then played through a significant injury in the playoffs, while Datsyuk did the same, but only scored 1 goal in 16 games (IIRC).

The fact is that Cup winning teams like PIT, CHI, and LA could NOT have been built if those teams drafted from the position the Wings have from the early 90's to the present. Holland's ability to find and replace talent against those odds may not last forever, but don't ever forget that it worked for a damn long time.

#2309562 Zach Parise

Posted by StormJH1 on 24 June 2012 - 09:23 PM

Didnt read the 7 pages of this thread, but I live in MN and they've been all over Parise all year. A lot of people even feel it's more likely than not he signs here (and if that happens, Suter too). I can't see it. Hometown connection is nice and all but this guy was two games away from the Cup. The Wild are stockpiling young talent, but they're still years away. Parise has to commit to a franchise for probably 8 or 10 years in this deal - he needs certainty that things are run well, plus the chance to compete in his prime.

#1979215 Detroit is old and one win wont change that.

Posted by StormJH1 on 07 May 2010 - 11:18 AM

When the Wings won their first modern cup in 1997, Yzerman had just turned 32 years old, and Fedorov was 27. They were in the same points of their career as Datsyuk and Zetterberg are now. Yes, in the pre-salary cap era, the Wings had the ability to go buy or trade for star players, irrespective of salary, but:

(a) So did Colorado and any other serious contender at that time;
(b) The players the Wings "bought" were almost always OLDER players (Larionov, Murphy, Sandstrom). Shanahan was the same age as Fedorov.

Obviously, there's nothing wrong with having a core of players in the prime of their career, supplemented by younger energy players (Draper, Maltby, McCarty in '97; Helm, Abdelkader, Miller, etc. 2008-10). And "old" is not the same as "slow". Derian Hatcher wasn't necessarily old, but he sucked. Lidstrom is 40 years old but still effective. Chelios was very effective in 2002, and passable in 2008, but it's not like we don't have younger quality players too.

Oh, and our goalie is a Calder nominee, by the way.