StormJH1

It would be extremely foolish to think that Yzerman (or any player for the matter) could have kept a consistent scoring pace in the first half of his career and his second half.  I think you are overestimating the impact of him putting his team first.  You could probably take any player in history and you will likely see some signficant declines in later years.

If Gretzky maintained the same pace in his last 10 years as he did in his first 10 years, he'd have scored 3,674 points, not 2,857.  Injury + age, same for Yzerman, is the main reason for decline.

There are other reasons.  People tend to forget (or didn't witness it firsthand if they are under, say, 30 years old) that NHL scoring fell off a cliff after roughly the 1992-93 season.

http://www.quanthock...oalsPerGame.php

If you only talk with Red Wings fans, you grow up with the impression that the 90's and early 2000's were this golden age of hockey.  And they were...for a Red Wings or Avalanche fan.  Everyone else refers to it as the "Dead Puck" era - the first time in this history of hockey were goaltenders were absolutely fearless in net, when they wore absurdly large (and since outlawed) jerseys, pads, and chest protectors that took up the whole net, but still benefited from trapping defensive schemes, no two-line passes, and unmitigated obstruction that slowed the game down.  There's a reason Teemu Selanne scored 70 goals as a rookie and never got close to that total again.  If Gretzky's career started in 1991 instead of 1979, he'd still have been a great player, but I'm almost certain he doesn't break Howe's goal record.  It wasn't even the same game in the 1980's, and blocked shots are a huge difference even between the 90's and 2000's.

I want to say Lidstrom in the poll (who won an extra Cup, and did so as the leader of a Salary Cap-limited team), but my heart knows that it's Yzerman.  However, I do think that the praise for Yzerman swings a little too far at times, and people forget that that those 80's Wings teams where Yzerman was an offensive beast were still basically the likable losers.  It wasn't until Fedorov and Lidstrom came along that this became a perennial playoff team, Bowman got the star players to play defense, and even then, they still couldn't beat the other great teams of the day ('95 Devils, '96 Avs) until they added Shanahan and some other "spare parts".  But if you look at Yzerman's first half of his career compared to Lidstrom's, he was a much more important player to his team, even if the team wasn't doing much at the time.  Lidstrom may well be among the Top 5 or Top 10 defensemen of all time, yet Yzerman's importance to the Red Wings is somehow much more complex than that.

Yeah no offense OP...

But this just makes Tootoo even cooler in my book. I was psyched about the signing (still am) and the fact that he is proud about his heritage does nothing but further endear.

Also, you are waaay way wrong about your assessment of his hockey talents.

A Native American tribe recently petitioned (successfully, I believe) to sacrifice two Bald Eagles because their religion told them to do it.  Cool with that too?  

I'm not debating the conservationist aspect of it.  Obviously, asking people to care about animals, even endangered ones, on a hockey board is a fool's errand, when said advocate of killing the endangered animal has a chance to help out your 4th line.

But as a tactic, it's a troll move, and an "eff you" to people who try to protect endangered animals.  Tweeting a picture of a dead animal that most civilized nations are working hard to save from extinction is not a necessary tactic for arguing Inuit rights.  And no, it's not the same as showing a picture of a dead deer or rabbit.

But on the hockey point, what player are you talking about?!  $2 million for a "30-point" player who they BENCHED in the playoffs.  His career goal high was 11, and that was 6 years ago.  He had SIX goals last year.  Do you know how hard it is to play 77 games and only put the puck in the next 6 times?  That's Cory Emmerton territory. If we signed him for $700,000 on a two-way non-waiver deal, that'd be one thing.  For $2 million a year, he's going to play.

The people who think this is a good hockey signing are the same people who thought Brad May was going to save the Red Wings a few years ago because they were too soft.  I'd rather be known as a whiny animal lover than a fan of Jordin Tootoo.

God it's weird to see Radulov wearing the "C" on a team with Datsyuk on it.  It's like bizarro world.

No kidding.  I couldn't even imagine Radulov being a captain on a beer league team. Guess the KHL rewards guys that bail mid-contract on the NHL.


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Here's what really irks me - people debate the labor dispute and complain about how hockey is being taken from them and, oh, the poor arena workers and all the jobs being affected...

Then they turn around and say: "if there's a lockout, I won't ever watch hockey or pay a dime to the NHL again".  Aren't those positions antithetical?  Aren't you harming the sport, the players, and the workers just to get back at Bettman and the owners?  While also depriving yourself of the greatest sport on Earth?

I put this almost all on the owners and Bettman.  But I'll be back.  And so will you.


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Can't sign a new contract until the last year of the current one. Datsyuk has two years left, so no, Kenny can not yet sign him to a new contract.

Whew, see, there you go!  Glad we got that misconception cleared up, but it does make you wonder what percentage of people dumping on Holland this offseason is based on outright inaccuracies or impossibilities.  (Including, by the way, that there was any sales pitch or reasonable structuring of money that could've talked either Parise or Suter into playing for Detroit next year).

Seriously, the pendulum has swung WAY too far in the opposite direction on Holland.  Four Stanley Cups, turning super-talented players like Yzerman, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, and Zetterberg into Winged Wheel "lifers", and pulling a Hossa signing out of a hat in a season when nobody even dreamed about it....and then one offseason of relative inactivity/bad luck and the man is absolute garbage.  I don't get.

The ONLY guy this offseason that I thought we could reasonably get and who seemed interested in playing here that disappointed me was Alex Semin.  I was bummed to see him sign a short-term deal somewhere else, when it wasn't even certain if that was possible.

But given what we know now about the lockout, and the fact that another major CBA shakeup (with possible revisions to the salary cap and even retroactive adjustments to contracts) seems very likely, I'm somewhat glad go around the free agent market making it rain.  Are we as strong as we've been in recent years?  No.  Do I think we still have a very good team with quality players at goaltending, defense, and forward?  Absolutely I do.

I interpreted this topic differently - I thought you meant "Start over a career that looked so promising but then something happened and went horribly wrong".  The first guy I thought of was Igor Grigorenko, who was the prospect who flamed out after a car crash derailed his career.  Fischer wouldn't work because his problem was congenital and just a part of who he is.

If the season is locked out, Bettman should lose his job.  Plain and simple.  That would be the 3rd work stoppage during his tenure, which would effectively kill the sport dead in the United States.  It's already swimming against the tide in relation to baseball, basketball, and football, and if the season is shortened by any significant duration (half or more), there's no point in anyone aside from the  die hards to continue watching.  The die hards are already by my guesstimate, 3/4ths of the audience anyway.  That 1/4 that are "casual observers" will be gone, and it won't matter.

So Bettman better hope there isn't a lockout, or else he can kiss his job goodbye.  In the event he does get a Shanaban levied on him, is there anyone who can act as interim commish until another one is appointed/elected/promoted?

Can't disagree with that.  But I've never really felt that hockey was a true national, network television competitor with those other sports anyway.  In my opinion, that was a myth propagated by Bettman and fueled by a perfect storm of short-term East Coast hype (Rangers in '94, and Devils in '95), the heyday of SportsCenter coverage, and Bettman's ill-advised westward expansion.

Hockey doesn't look, play, or feel anything like the other sports.  The only sports season that it really "competes" with from start to finish is the NBA, which is as about as opposite of hockey as you can get.  In the late 90's, when hockey was getting play on FOX (glow puck, etc.), the majority of America who don't know this sport turn on the channel, see the white ice in the background, and quickly turn it off.  It might as well be figure skating or equestrian to those people.  There's really no point in pandering to that type of audience, pretending that your sport could ever be as big as football or basketball here.  It can't.  

At the same time, the league has done a lot of good things since the lockout to evolve into the type of sport that it needs to be going forward.  Bettman deserves some credit for that, yes, but I'd have no problem seeing him gone as soon as possible - you could lose sleep thinking about how much better the league could have been with the direction of someone actually passionate about the product and its fans.

Think about it as a television analogy - I hear a lot of NHL fans still stuck in the 1990's, and Bettman is guilty of this too.  They want the game to be "Friends" or "Seinfeld" - a central experience accessible to everyone that gets tens of millions of viewers on television.  Well, guess what?  The world has changed.  Does anyone here like "Mad Men", "Breaking Bad", or "Game of Thrones"?  Those shows get a fraction of the viewers that crap like the "CSI Miami" gets, yet they're considered some of the best shows on television, are extremely profitable for their networks, and are appreciated by a loyal collection of obsessed fans.  Why does the NHL need to be "CSI Miami" or "Friends"?  Why can't we keep costs within reason, and create a CBA without loopholes that result in star players making NFL or MLB-type money?

Bettman is totally ripable, but I think should be noted that public support in the 04-05 lockout was largely on the side of the OWNERS, despite the fact that the players are the actual face of the league and the source of the "product".

I'm going to throw a somewhat obscure one out that I've never forgotten - 2002 Playoffs against Vancouver, those Vancouver teams with pre-suspension Bertuzzi were particularly dirty, so after Chelios had a great game and we won, he decided to do this after being named 1st star:



Awesome.

On a much less lighter note, one that I refuse to post the video of (but you can go find if you want to remember) was one I didn't see live because I was in grad school in Minnesota, but heard about afterwards - Fischer collapsing on the bench.  Came absolutely out of nowhere in a somewhat non-descript regular season game.  Absolutely terrifying television - glad I didn't see it live.

Sawchuk was the best netminder of his time,  Ted was not only a great player who was part of one of the most productive lines in hockey,  but was also a pioneer for player rights and put his own neck on the line by standing up for player rights, was huge in the forming of the NHLPA.

Every argument against Fedorov being in the rafters is contradicted by the guys you referenced already up there.

(1) He needs to "bleed red and white"

The Wings won the '55 Cup and then Terry Sawchuk left to play in Boston for two years in the prime of his career.  Yes, he was predominantly a Red Wing, but he spent almost a decade until his death playing for Toronto, LA, and the Rangers.  Sergei Fedorov was more of a "career" Red Wing than Sawchuk, hands down.

(2) Guys like Lindsay were important for other reasons - like pioneering for players' rights and forming the NHLPA

What about Fedorov (along with Fetisov, Bure and Mogilny, in my opinion, to a lesser degree) defecting from Russia as a teenager and breaking the Iron Curtain?  You don't think Fedorov was an important pioneer for the globalization of the game and the acceptance of players from the former Soviet Bloc?

(3) Number Retirements are only for guys who unequivocally belong up there with no debate


Really?  I think this is an overreaction to the last two guys who are going up there (#19 and #5).  Not even getting into the whole Larry Aurie debate (and why the Illitchs should never "un-retire" a number), what about Terry Sawchuk.  His number was retired in 1994.  He died in 1970.  You're telling me there was never any debate about whether he belonged up there?  Then why didn't they bring his family out in 1971 or 1972 and do it then?

Maybe views changed.  Maybe time was needed to recognized the significance of Sawchuk's accomplishments and downplay the fact that most of his final years were spent playing for other NHL teams.  Maybe four decades of Dead Wings hockey with no Stanley Cups put into perspective how difficult it really is to win that trophy.

I think that views will change and evolve on Fedorov as well.  Once the pissy matches and bitter feelings subside, it will be a disgrace that his number isn't up there, despite the fact that we probably don't win 3 Cups, or maybe even 1 Cup without him.  We'll never know that, of course.  But in the meantime, go ahead and tell yourself that this honor means nothing to Fedorov because he's a lazy Russian.  I wonder if it means something to Datsyuk and every other Russian player that has and will wear the Winged Wheel...to know that their accomplishments don't come with a 10% deduction off what they would have been if they were North American or Swedish.  It doesn't feel right to me not to honor what I saw with my own eyes for over a decade, but I suppose other reasonable fans might have seen something different than I did.

It's not the particular political views Thomas espouses that are the problem.  I don't think anybody's been able to figure out exactly what those are anyway.  The problem was that he embarrassed the Bruins organization and drew attention to his own views on multiple occasions during a time when his team should have been focused on making the Playoffs and getting a good seed.

I think they were phasing him out in favor of Rask anyway.

It isn't disrespectful to offer a negative opinion about one's TEAM by prefacing that it isn't opinion against a city or fanbase.  The NAS poster has been well-behaved and insightful.  But he also wants his team succeed and my (our) team to fail.  Disagreements are okay!

My opinion was that Nashville doesnt have the will or resources to pay their players.  If you don't agree with that, observe that they tried to lowball their franchise player for years, and then apparently did have the money to pay what was essentially open market value for him.  It is what it is.

Oh, and by the way, they still need other contracts to get even up to the floor of what you are required to pay in salaries to operate an NHL franchise.  

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I agree completely, and I'm not sure he's worth much more than Quincey considering their production over the past few seasons. When you consider he'd also be the highest paid player on the team I think I'd rather pass and look for other options.

This.  He got Lidstrom-like playing time and put up Kyle Quincey numbers.  Actually, Quincey was more productive than him at LA and COL.

After sleeping on this, I have little interest.  Especially if we had to give up any of the top 4 trade assets normally thrown around (Flip, Franzen, Nyquist, Smith)

I'm telling you what poile wanted in return.  Philly didn't want to give up schenn or seanC.  All im saying is that if they really wanted weber, then they had their chance.  The preds fanbase would have revolted if they took philly's offer.

As for losing the players we did, yes losing suter is tough but we still have weber which is more than anyone else, save boston, can say.  And radulov? Really? He played all of 8 regular season games last year.  Without him, our PP was number 1 in the league. We had 10 guys with double digit goals before he came.  We told him to walk to a reason.  Same goes for tootoo.  He whined his ass off when he was scratched in the playoffs. Remember? We won in 5 games without him. Don't let the door hit ya...and if I remember right, babcock's comments after the defeat pretty much told the story of how our bottom 6 wore you guys out.  The same bottom 6 that are all under contract next year, so please, talk to me some more about our depth problems and I'll keep telling you that you have no idea what your talking about.

No disrespect for Nashville or Nashville fans, but your team is the Florida/Miami Marlins of the NHL, minus the rings.  You absolutely cleaned our clocks in the 1st round, I have no interest in disputing that.  But to use that as any kind of argument going forward doesn't make a whole lot of sense because we've seen these "fake surges" from you before.  With the exception of Rinne (who seems to be an excellent goaltender, even though I don't really believe in long-term deals for supposedly "elite" goalies) and Martin freakin' Erat who have the Preds actually developed and retained recently?  Ownership puts on these dog-and-pony shows for the fans who actually care (yourself included, I assume) by picking up a Forsberg or Gaustad at the deadline.  But then those guys are gone, and so is anyone else of consequence.

I think Shea Weber is an excellent defenseman.  He would have been a terrific building block if he actually wanted to be there.  But if I were a Predators fan, I think that I would be of the opinion that it would be better to go find an Eric Lindros-type haul and build myself with picks and assets the way the Nords/Avalance did in the 90's.  If that means bottoming out for a few years...even better.  You'll end up with a Yakupov or Stamkos-type star on a reasonable contract for the next 3 years.  This team WILL miss Suter, and the offense is a lot of smoke and mirrors.  They're good enough to hover around and get into the playoffs, which is just good enough to ensure you won't get any top level picks for all those years.

Haven't weighed in on Bouwmeester yet, so here it goes.

PROS - The Wings have two things that would make a move like this seem reasonable - (1) A good deal of cap space and (so far) nowhere to use it; (2) A dire need of another Top 4 defenseman after the loss Lidstrom and Stuart.  

High cap hit ($6.6 million) or not, Bouwmeester's deal only has two years left.  Additional deals come off the books next season, including Filppula, Cleary, and White (though some of the UFA's may be re-signed or traded).  We could afford this deal and acquire a large defenseman with a history of past success at two seasons of his physical prime (he's 28).

Oh, and by the way, he hasn't missed ONE GAME since the lockout.  Seriously.  Played 82 games from 2005 to 2012.  Amazing.

CONS - Here's the thing: some people have mentioned that he plays 25 minutes a game as a GOOD thing.  While that is true from a stamina perspective, it's pretty frightening that this guy gets that many minutes a game and is only a 24-29 point per year player (with 3-5 goals).  One assumes he got plenty of power play time, as well.  The crappy Calgary offense could be blamed for part of that, but it doesn't make you feel comfortable about acquiring him...

And since it's a trade (and a 2-year, not a 1-year rental), we would have to give up something to get him.  Names like Flip, Franzen, Nyquist and Smith were often tossed around for Nash or Ryan, would you want to lose guys like that for Bouwmeester.  I don't know.

There's also the fact that Bouwmeester's teams have always been BAD, and these are teams where he's asked to play a significant role.  I don't think that's coincidental.  Look at the impact a Pronger or Chara-type guy had on Edmonton, Philly, or Boston.  Instant credibility as Stanley Cup contenders.  And those guys were similarly compensated for their services compared to what Bouwmeester makes.  So I don't think it's automatic that we could just plug him into a winning team and expect better results.

Wow.  What the heck is Columbus doing?  So, their three best forwards are now Derrick Brassard, R.J. Umberger, and Brandon Dubinsky.  Yeah, that'll sell tickets.

I understand why they might not want to trade Nash to US, but why even trade him at all if you can't get an elite prospect out of the deal?  Dubinsky has a 4.2 million cap hit for the next three years - that's the type of garbage you overpay for no reason other than to get to the salary floor.