Shaman

As I have said, there are two sides that are both too extreme, your camp 'all is well, no need to worry, don't question Kenny, its blasphemy' and the 'The sky is falling and we will never be good' side. They are both starting to get on my nerves, this team is not what they were, its clear, but the sky hasn't fallen, and the Wings still have a solid roster, they will just need to claw their way in. Now to address your point, could Kenny have done better? Yes, this should be clear to anyone looking. Did he s*** the bed? I don't think so, but, inaction in a lot of peoples minds isn't much better. Personally I am in the 'wait and see' camp, I can see where both sides are coming from, and both have good points.

If someone thinks hes worth 7.5 million for 4 years, I'd love to meet him, because I have a lot of stuff I want to sell them.

Well, there has been some experiments to combine Orr's offense with Lidstrom's Defense and knees to make a super D-man, but, Pizza sales have been down and transmogrifiers are not cheap.

The only real problem I can find with the past few years is drafting philosophy in the first two rounds that caused them to miss out on some really good D-prospect that would be either NHL ready today, or by the 2013 season. But the draft is never a guarantee, so I won't fault him too much for it.

To be clear the success of the Wings, just like the failures of the Wings are not Holland's alone, its the whole management and coaching infrastructure. If I wanted Holland fired (and I may after this season (2012-13)), it wouldn't be just a message to Holland, but to the whole front office. This season will tell the real worth of the Ken Holland Red Wings. (I say this because up until 2008-2009 the Wings were pretty much the team built by Bowman and Jimmy D along with Holland).

+/- is a poor stat for judging defensive performance, I'd look at situational stats, quality minutes, etc. If you take 2 defensemen with the same overall skill set and ability level and one plays against bottom 6 players exclusively and the other plays against top 6 players exclusively, I would bet my bottom dollar that D-man #1 will have a better +/-, even if D-man two is playing more quality minutes.

Holland hasn't been the GM for 20 years. Just saying.

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/07/red_wings_prospect_teemu_pulkk.html Seems he's really turning heads, and impressing everyone. Also like his commitment to defense.

Too. Many. Ifs. If Datsyuk, Zetterberg, And Franzen go back to old form. If Filpulla continues to progress, Smith, Quinecy, Kindl and Ericsson take the next step. That's what you seem not to grasp, this team COULD be good, but, unless everything goes right, they aren't even as good as they were last year. I expect them to regress to a bubble team, because I am realistic, I will cheer for them if they are a bottom feeder or SC winners, but I won't delude myself.

Seriously, I keep saying this, it seems there is no middle ground here... its either 'the Wings are fine and they will win forever and ever and ever' or 'The Wings better start scouting the top draft candidates now, because they are a lottery team'. This team is clearly a bubble team as it stands right now, its neither good enough to be considered elite nor bad enough to be considered a bottom feeder. As I said in other threads, I am afraid this team will become like Calgary, coming up a little short, not making it in the playoffs, or getting bounced early, and the management never seeing the forest for the trees and addressing the problems because they are always 'that close' to being there.

I am not afraid of the team being a bottom feeder, a Columbus or an Edmonton, that's not the worst place to be. These teams maybe on the bottom now, but they are using that to collect pieces for the future, they have no where to go but up. The team I don't want the Wings to be like is Calgary. Calgary is never good enough to go much further than either a last week of the season elimination or a first round exit. They never are bad enough to have to really take a serious look at rebuilding, but never good enough to take that next step. They always look good on paper as a team, and on paper you always have to think they are a threat to be the team to come out of nowhere and do well. Since 2004 their team has always had (on paper) a goalie that can steal games, a lot of big name d-men, and a forward corp that has a great mix of grit and skill. But every year they just seem to never go anywhere more than 7-10th place. This is what I am afraid of, not being terrible, but being mediocre.

Always liked Selanne, hope he plays well.

Everyone needs to calm down, its July 12th, still months from October and the start of hockey season, there is still a lot of time. This team does have needs, but honestly, what can he say? 'The wings need to make huge trade/get a FA at any cost'... If he says that well any cost will be higher than it would have been otherwise, and that says a lot because its already a sellers market. Calm down, enjoy the warm, dry weather in Michigan, and realize that until the season starts Kenny does have time.

He decided to stay in Sweden to work on strength instead of coming to the US for conditioning.

About Pulkkinen at camp: George Malik

How am I supposed to win an internet debate without using Ad homs?

Just google 'floating' you'll be sure to find it.

Tootoo is not as good defensively, and will be a 14th forward on this team. And a lot of 'ifs' in the top six, which with the questionable state of the back end is not what the Wings need. They need to not only make up the 50 pts and 25 goals of Hudler but also make up the goals that Lidstrom and Stuart prevented. I would honestly say that between Lidstrom and Stuart there were at least 20 goal prevented over replacement, and as many as 30 goals prevented. Lets take the middle of those two at 25 goals. This means to keep the same goals for/goals against differential they need make up for the 18 goals from Stuart and Lidstrom, the 25 goals from Hudler, and the goals prevented by Stuart and Lidstrom, this is a total of around 70 goals difference over last year. Now the question is the offense's ability to score coupled with the defenses ability to prevent goals able to account for that ~70 goals? I say if EVERYTHING goes perfectly, yes it is. But how many season does everything go perfectly? 82 games are not a sprint or a marathon, its a war of attrition.

The final answer to this thread is this: This team is a playoff team if everything goes right. If all the players that need to take a step forward take it, if all the players that underachieved return to form, if all players that overachieved continue to overachieve, and there are no injuries. If all these things happen this team will be #4 or #5 in the West. If any of these things don't happen the team has a very real chance of regressing to a bubble team. If the worst case happens and more than one of these things don't happen this team may not make the playoffs. This is why a lot of us want Semin or Doan and another D-man, because it gives the Wings wiggle room, so that if something doesn't go perfectly they will not be hurt as much by it. With all the trends of the last 3 seasons, I would say that if the Wings do stand pat, it will be a very long season indeed.

The Wings have not upgrade on Forward, they have move laterally on forward at best. Sammy is a year older and playing with worse line mates, so no way hes a 50 point player, especially if he lands on the third line. Brunner is an unproven commodity, and shouldn't be counted on to be anything until he shows he can make the transition to the NA game. Tootoo is a spare part that was benched by the Preds at the end of last season and during the playoffs on a Preds team that is not deep at Forward. Add to this Bertuzzi and Cleary are both a year older and not showing signs of not declining I don't see how you can say they are better in the forward department. Add the less dangerous offense to a defense that has taken at least a step and a half backwards, well... the bright side is a down year could reduce Howard's value on his next contract anyway.

At this Point I just want Holland to get a #3 D-man, and hope that Ericsson and Kindl both take steps forward, because of they do the team would have 6 second pairing D-men, and hopefully with Fil, Dats, and Z all being amazing 2 ways players that it could be enough to be defensively sound (not elite, but sound). Real quick, 2 seasons ago Babs said that he expected 70 points out of Hudler. Just saying.

Doan has never had more than 31 goals, and that was 5 seasons ago, Doan would be a 22/48 player in Detroit based upon is stat regression over the last 5 season.

I think for 5.5 million over 3 years like some people want makes Detroit weaker. If any other team does sign him though I'd want it to be Chicago, because of the position it puts them in.

Exactly why I want them to get Doan, they have a terrible goaltending tandem and a defense that features Oduya, as their #3 defenseman.

Please let them do this and play 6 million to do it.