Shaman

Never has, never will, probably not his fault, he probably didnt want to be shoved down all our throats, but since he has been, I can never look at him with anything near respect. Not fully his fault, but his ******* antics don't help my preceptions.

I dont know, seems Canada is choking real bad....

Sold him high, the tigers believed he peaked as an offensive player, and with his pisspoor ability to hit lefties and his lack of plate discipline was hurting the tigers as much as his defense was helping. They got a lot of assets in return and have room starting in 2011 to make moves.

I personally can't wait for the season to start, the Tigers have a strong rotation (Hopefully Bonderman is doing as well as Verlander is saying) if they land Damon they have a decent (a few holes in it granted) offense and the Central is weak so the tigers most definitely are contenders this year.

I could make a pretty solid case that Crosby isnt even the best player on his team, let alone 2nd best in the League.

Some days I believe he writes purely just to see his name on a current blog, then i read said blog, and know my beliefs are indeed facts.

Its been a week

He also has the A on his Jersey.

Its just a game? If you get despondent over a simple hockey game (and most season for the wings there are over 95 of them) you really should look into the mirror and try to figure out where your priorities got f***ed. If you can't sit back and have fun watching the Wings no matter the outcome you take it way too seriously. I love the Red Wings, I was born and raised in Detroit, MI and Ive been a wings fan for as long as I can remember, but if they lose, life goes on, and the day it doesn't is the day I will stop watching them. Sure I get pissed if they lose, but, 5 minutes later, its cool, there is always tomorrow. So please Kwame, youre a kid, just realize you have a lot of hockey ahead of you and not to sweat it.

you, no, crymson, always.

Hey look, personal attacks, gotta love LGW.

I would disagree, there is a clear 'first line' in Pittsburgh, while youre right, they are usually a wash in minutes played, if you watch them play, in key situations youre going to see the Crosby line on the ice 90% of the time they do have a clear #1 line, while you can argue that Malkin's line is 1b i will argue its 2nd just for the fact Dan Bylsma clearly favors the Crosby line. TOI wouldnt be where id look in Pittsburgh for which line is 1 and which is 2. As for the Marleau gaff, you are correct, and I retract it.

Ok, you have yet to sucessfully counter the following points: #1 How can you use an incomplete sample size of 34 games and 20 good games to declare him to be the best choice for 2nd line center and that hes a good one as compared to rest of the League (note that in the group of 2nd line centers you have Malkin, Tomas Fleischmann, etc etc)? #2 How can you logically say that Flip will have a PPG rate higher than .6 at the end of the season given his track record of not showing up offensively in the past? Especially when the team is getting healthy and him being a 3rd line center with line mates that are worse than last season? #3 How do you address the weaknesses in his game that you always over look? a. Weak play on the boards b. Inability to score even on the open net #4 Where do you think he will peak in his scoring, and if its over 60 points in a season, how do you see that ever happening? #5 Why would you keep Flip over a natural goal scorer? #6 How do you define the role of a 2nd line center? #7 How is he not the best trade bait to address the wings biggest problem, goal scoring?

Let me make this clear, Flip is a good player, but D and Z for C and Finnish you talk about him like hes going to score 70 points every season and compete with Zetterberg and Datsyuk for 2nd like Centering duties, that will NEVER happen, when Flip does do second line duties it won't be because anything hes done, but because Z and D are together for a period of time. He is a 3rd line center, he is a good 3rd line center, he is not this homerun second line center you keep saying he is, I will literally eat my hat if he ever scores more than 69 points in a season (Barring him playing with a superstar sniper). He is a DEFENSIVE forward with SOME play making abilities (So help me god if any of you say 'well dats said this' ill just show you 10000000 examples of players on teams saying that, like Justin Verlander saying Bonderman looks like he did when he was projected to be an ace in 06 this year, players don't trash their own team mates) he can't score goals, and his upperbody strength is sometimes abit suspect (its hard to tell, some games he gets man handled, while others he does make strong plays). Hes peaked on the wings as the everyday 3rd line center and occasional 2nd line center when theres a shake up, and if you believe one day he will be the everyday second line center, youre just nuts.

Youre assuming his production over those games would be at the same constant as it has been since he returned, you can just as easily make the assumption that he'd have a massive slump over those games and his PPG would be insanely low. You can't assume his production would be constant, because hes never been a constant producer.

Points, not PPG hes 81st Its simple theres no way he goes up .14 pts per game if hes played all the games, in the last 2 seasons hes improved by .4 and thats with increasingly better linemates and more ice time, this year he has about the same ice time and s***tier line mates, there is NO way his production jumps 28% when wings production has drop by 1/3 this season, superstars would be hard pressed to have such a large jump in production on even good teams, Flip would NEVER have that PPG rate if he was healthy the whole season, and he wont end the season that high, he will cool off. If you believe that Flip can magically increase his production over a season by 28% while the team as the whole have drop by over 30% then you really are dumb and shouldnt be debating.

Hes not on a top 6 pace first off, you pollute the sample by including all forwards, hes not a winger, hes a Center, there are 30 teams, so 60 top 2 line centers, hes 81st in the league among all centers. That would almost put him at the bottom of the 3rd tier of centers. Now you will probably counter by saying hes at a .64 ppg rate, now since the sample size is too low for it to be accurate to reflect where he would be i took it down to .54 which is where i believe he would be had he not been injured, as per progression over that last few years, that would be a more realistic PPG he would have around 30 points that would put him good for 61. So as an offensive center, hes really not in the 'top 6' in the league, he is in the area a good 3rd line center would be.

Thats not a great sample size, throughout his career hes never shown the skill set needed for a true 2nd line center, hes a good passer, but his play making ability isn't what people here keep saying it is. He can't score a goal to save his life, and unless he gets a winger that is one of those 'lift everyone up around him' type players, he will never put up more than 55 points. Now you will quote at me 'PPG for the season would give him X number of points' which is a cop out because, as we all know players this year love to slump at the worst possible moments and hes has had a few slumps in his career that have been frustrating to watch. I am not arguing that hes a worthless player, but, on these boards hes just badly overrated, I am just fine with the idea that hes going to be a career very talented 3rd liner and never make it as a full time 2nd line center, some people believe those words are blasphemy.

Hes not playing like a top 6 player, Staal would be the archetype for a 3rd line center and he definitely a better offensive player as compared to flip. Flip is an above average 3rd line center, and a sub par 2nd line center.

I respectfully disagree, hes definitely more of a Jordan Staal third line center, not a classic 2nd line center. He will be a career 3rd line center on any good team, he doesn't have game breaking (note that term) play making or goal scoring ability that would make him fit the model of a true second line center. Flip has a lot of great tools, but he does lack that game breaking ability that separates a scoring line center from an energy/shut down line center. Flip is a offensively talented defensive center, not a defensively sound offensive center.

Well, Olesz is described in the league as the next franzen, but with some extra tools, hes younger and more potential than flip....

Why would Babs do that? Hes third on the depth chart on Centers on this team, hes not as good defensively or offensively as either Datsyuk or Zetterberg, and since Babcock is smart enough to realize splitting up our 2 biggest offensive threats is a good idea Flip wont be a 2nd line center.

If and only if it solves the problem should he get the surgery. No surgery is 100% safe, or 100% effective, so he should only do it if its the best option for his recovery.

Name a player that could fit the bill youre talking about?

Hes most comparable to Franzen, but with better passing ability. I think with some training in Detroit's defensive system he could be a very sound 2 way player.