55fan

I'll eat them with, but I prefer them without. The person below me likes french toast.

Cheesecake. If you happen to have some berries, that would be good too. Be bald or wear a wig?

A brat is a bratwurst. It's a popular grilling sausage eaten like a hot dog. Picking my friends. Old or new?

Let's do a quick quiz (just for fun). Answer the following questions without looking them up on the internet or asking anyone else. Just go with what's in the top of your head. 1) Who was the coach between Bowman and Babcock? 2) What number draft pick was Henrik Zetterberg? 3) Which player was known as Papa Bear? 4) After Larry Aurie, who wore #6? 5) What is the birthplace of Gordie Howe? 6) Who was the first Finn to play for the Wings? 7) What is the occupation of Chris Osgood's wife? 8) What is the name of Todd Bertuzzi's son? 9) What is the most recent season in which two sets of Wings had the same birthdays (albeit different years)? 10) Which player from a rival team has a son named after Shanny? 0-1 correct: You are on the wrong board. The Red Wing Shoe Company does not advertise here. 2-3 correct: You are aware that hockey exists. You might feel more at home on the Panthers' forum. Uh, Florida Panthers, that is. Yes, they exist. 4-6 correct: You have a life outside of the Red Wings. Stop it. 7-9 correct: You need a life outside of the Red Wings. 10 correct: You are an addict. Edit to add answers. For answers, hit reply and they will magically appear. 1) Dave Lewis 2) 210 3) Slava Fetisov 4) Cummy Burton 5) Floral, SK 6) Filppula 7) Owner of a yoga studio 8) Tag 9) 08-09 (Sammy and Franzen Dec. 23 and Hossa and Kronwall Jan 12) 10) Claude Lemieux

I'm going to throw out a question here: What do you consider the most important factor in determining whether or not a number goes to the rafters? What do you consider to be the other factors, and how much emphasis do you give them? For example, I think we all agree that quality of play and loyalty are both important, but what determines an adequate amount of each? What part do stats play in your evaluation? How about comparison to players of the past from the team and/or how the player compares to his contemporaries? I don't think there is a particular formula. The best I've heard (and I agree with) is that if there has to be a discussion as to whether or not someone is worthy, the answer is "no". Ok, that was more than one question I threw. Run with it.

It's so odd. Every time this comes up on the forum home, it only shows a certain number of characters in the thread title, and it reads "pat kane in rehab for being" If only.

And sometimes before. The person below me keeps liquor in the house just in case.

Wintergreen. Burger or brat?

Casey's point there was that there was no "best goalie" award, which is what the Vezina is now. At that time, the Vezina was what the Jennings is now. The Jennings essentially became the Vezina, and the Vezina changed. At any rate, thanks for looking up all of those stats. That is the sort of thing that I would look at for arguments for/against getting into the Hall. They most certainly come into play when looking to the rafters, but there are other factors. Stevie was overshadowed by Wayne and Mario when it came to awards, but no one in their right mind would question whether or not he belongs in the rafters. Of course he does. He spent his entire career with the Winged Wheel on his heart, led the team, and became synonymous with the team itself. It's not awards that got him up there. Again, I'm not questioning who was the better goalie. I'm just saying it is hard to prove that with the stats in different eras. Terry played in the O-6 era for most of his career. Ozzie played in an ever-expanding era. How do they compare on matters of all-star appearances? On one hand, one could say that one had to be better to even be playing when there were only 6 teams. On the other hand, one could say that being named "allstar" was more difficult when there is so much more competition. Is one better to be the best of 6 (6 teams; no backups) or is one better to be the best of 60 (30 teams; assuming one backup per team-although there may be more)? An argument could be made either way. We could get into the whole "larger population of NA + addition of Euros" argument. We could argue equipment, medical attention... the list goes on. At the end of the day, both have impressive stats, and Sawchuck has set the gold standard for goalies in the rafters of the Joe. The question is whether or not Ozzie is up to that standard as a Wing for his era. If I put money on it, my bet would be no. I don't see him in the rafters, but I would not be indignant if he was chosen.

Just to clarify- Yes, Sawchuck was one of the greatest ever. What I was saying is that the style of hockey, the style of goaltending, and a whole bunch of other factors (especially the presence of a backup goalie) makes it impossible to compare how one would have done against the other if they had played in the same era. The questions I'm asking myself pretty much involve how they impacted the success of the Wings. That's what gets you into the rafters. How well you played gets you into the Hall. How you effected the team gets you into the rafters. So I'm asking who was better for the Wings. I don't remember Sawchuck playing for the Wings. I was too young the last time he was here and wasn't around before that. I can only go by what I've read. I don't know how he meshed in the locker room. I've read that he had his problems, but I don't know to what extent they effected his teammates. There are a lot of intangibles to having one's number retired. How does Osgood compare to Sawchuck outside of the raw stats (assuming that those would be comparable from one era to another)? I guess the question isn't whether or not he was as good of a goalie. He wasn't. The better question might be whether or not he was as good of a Red Wing. And to that, I have no answer.

Crosby

The two are most definitely linked. No hall=no rafters, but getting into the hall in no way guarantees the rafters. They are similar, yet different. Induction into the hall involves comparison to other goalies; retiring the jersey involves comparison to past Wings of all positions, although a comparison to Sawchuck is the one that would make or break the rafters argument.

This is a valid question, and one I've been pondering since discussion came up about this. If it is agreed that Osgood is better, then he belongs up with Terry. If not, I really don't think so. I can't come to a good conclusion. The eras were different. Terry played with no back-up and through all sorts of pain and injuries and troubles. Terry's life was tragic, as was his death. All of this makes it hard to have an objective comparison as to which is better, and if Ozzie belongs there. My heart says yes. My head says no. My stomach says go cook some spaghetti.

You forgot to factor in the time zones. When the poll came out Mrs. Hudler, Grandma Hudler, and the Russian Hookers were all asleep or working.

I kind of do it all together. Get hair wet. Soap up (shampoo, then body). Rinse hair (which rinses self). Conditioner. Rinse. Dry off. THE LIGHT BULB JUST WENT ON!!!!! Now I know why I'm overweight! I've been using extra body shampoo!!! Sorry, back to the game. Iowa or Illinois?

Horribly sad. The cynic in me wonders why on earth he didn't just flush the pills before calling the police. Or at least give them to someone to hide. I'm surprised that one pill would do it. I know quite a few people who use oxy and still drink. Sometimes you get sick, but it takes a lot of booze/pills to do that. I feel terrible for their family.

Whichever's cheaper. More fun way to cool off: Run through the sprinkler or spray with the hose?

Nope. Allergic to hops. Although if I got near Murph when he had his dollar beer goggles on... The person below me has been eating a lot of popsicles lately.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. It could be a temporary thing. They don't need to put a big story with it. "Upper body injury" works just fine. Once a person's been through the rehab, then that person can choose how to handle the public, hopefully with a clearer mind. These are athletes we're talking about, not world leaders. If <insert politician here> was showing up to lead the nation half-wacked on coke, I'd want to know about it. Their decisions have the power to affect changes that effect my daily life. If <insert athlete here> gets stoned in the off-season, it doesn't effect my life enough that I need to know about their care. It would only effect my life if I (or a loved one) was on the wrong end of a collision because they were DUI. In that case, getting them treatment is for the greater good. EDIT: Just read your post, Cali. You have a point there about people offering alcohol etc. if they don't know. Once a person is through with the initial program and is maintaining their sobriety, they are usually more willing to talk about it, and have learned/are learning ways to decline the substance. The cover-up is for getting them into the program. For some people, the opinions of others can be a huge block.

Now you're rolling! BTW, I was just funning with you. I was amused by your breakdown.

Yogurt. I'm mildly allergic to nuts. Clean the house in one fell swoop or divide it up into manageable portions?

Just ate, and am still hungry. I'm sure that will change in a bit once things run their course. The person below me itches.

Not a problem. The aliens beamed it down from the Mothership that fabricated Obama from left-over DNA from their home planet. The government is now in their hands. They want us to question authority so that there will be anarchy. We are doomed. (I'm just kidding, btw.)

You disappoint me, Steve. You didn't go with the whipped cream comment.

YOU disagree with ME! YOU are, therefore, DELUSIONAL! YOUR opinion is DIFFERENT; therefore, it is WRONG! Ok, got the Internet Poll Mindset out of the way. I picked Draper. No one knows whether or not the Chosen One will have a good or bad season, but at least with Draper, we get whipped cream.