GMRwings1983

Do you also root for the Nazis when watching war movies?

I can play the bolded game too. Bold 1: I understand you're talking about goal scoring. You can certainly make a good argument that Ovechkin is a better goal scorer over his career than Gretzky, even though his peak and dominance isn't as high. Why did I bring up points and not just goals? Simply because Gretzky still led the league in points in the 90's, despite the expansion of European players. Why wouldn't he still lead the league in goals, during the 80's, when he was younger and better, even if the best European players (Soviets) were playing in the NHL in the 80's? I'm pretty sure Soviets playing in the NHL wouldn't have changed Gretzky's goal numbers in the 80's. He did very well in International competitions. If you're suggesting his goal scoring in the 90's went down because of more European players, I don't agree. There were other reasons. Bold 2: This is simply false. I can see how goalies are better schooled nowadays, but outside of Tretiak, Gretzky was playing against the best goalies of his era. You can't just transport Ben Bishop with his giant pads into the 80's, as he would instantly become the best goalie in the world. Even Jimmy Howard would look good playing back then. Conversely, Grant Fuhr or Billy Smith transported via time machine would struggle in today's era. This doesn't mean Gretzky didn't face any good goalies or that goaltending sucked in the 80's. This is not the way to compare different eras. He dominated who he had to play against. Ovechkin is playing against giant goalies who are well schooled and wear lots of pads, but he's also bigger, stronger, and uses better hockey equipment. Gretzky, Kurri, and Bossy didn't use the kind of sticks players use today. I don't see how the forwards or defensemen are better today. The best defensemen of the 80's are Bourque, Potvin, Coffey, Robinson , Chelios, MacInnis, Stevens, Langway. Fetisov would be the big omission who didn't play in the league during his prime. Are you going to tell me that Ovechkin's era has seen a higher caliber of defensemen when it comes to all-time ranking? I doubt it. Do I need to name all the great forwards of the 80's besides Gretzky? Yes, there were some NHL omissions like Makarov, Larionov, and many other Soviets, but on the whole the 80's didn't lack great forwards in the NHL. That era is loaded will Hall of Fame forwards, even if you eliminate accumulators like Andreychuk, Gartner, and a few others. Bold 3: I covered this already. This is not a knock on Gretzky's era, minus the Soviet players. Sweden, Finland, and many other countries weren't loaded with stars back then as compared to today. We're not talking hundreds of players being held back from playing in the league. I'm not being presumptuous when I say Gretzky would still dominate that decade regardless of who came to the NHL from the Soviet Union, Sweden, Finland, Czechoslovakia, etc. Yes, there are more players now from other countries, more diversity, etc. If that is going to be held against Gretzky's era, you can do so with any era pre-Gretzky. Maybe Crosby is better than Howe because he's playing against more European players from different countries? Neither Wayne nor Gordie should be blamed for world hockey not being as developed during their era. This isn't like Fedor not fighting in the UFC during his prime or Jack Dempsey refusing to fight black fighters. Bold 4: OK, you didn't have a bold 4, but you mentioned something in another post I wanted to touch upon. You said that it's silly to expect anyone today to outscore the competition by 25 goals. It's certainly hard to envision it, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. Before Orr or Gretzky came along, many would say it's impossible to envision a defenseman outscoring forwards by a wide margin, or a forward to score close to 200 points every year, while nobody else was close to 150. Same thing with Gretzky's best goal scoring seasons. Imagine if today a player came along with Gretzky or Mario like greatness (so someone better than Crosby, Ovechkin, or McDavid). Is it impossible that guy could score 160 points every year while the next highest would be approaching 120 or 115? Nobody is going to score 90 goals in today's era, but is it impossible that such a player could score 70+ goals for many consecutive seasons while the next highest is in the low 50's? You can call it "silly" until someone does it. Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux did it in hockey. Babe Ruth and Wilt Chamberlain had many seasons in their sports where they were lapping the field in PPG or home runs. And what's wrong with that? Goalies nowadays do wear too much equipment. But it's also true that skaters have better equipment and are bigger and stronger than they were in the 80's, let alone during Hull's era. That's why you cannot just transport 5'10 Bobby Hull, with his wooden stick and no helmet to today's era. Just like you cannot transport Ovechkin via time machine into an era where he'd be one of the biggest players in the NHL and would have a composite stick and a helmet. Time machine transportation is not how to compare players. If you judge those two players based on their peers, you'd see a similar dominance if we're just looking at goal scoring. Hull had five 50 goal seasons. In two of those seasons, he didn't even play 70 games. He obviously didn't play 80 games in any of those five seasons. He also won three Art Ross trophies, and was runner up three more times, so he wasn't just being a one-sided offensive player. He was scoring goals while doing other things. Hull won the Richard trophy 7 times. He finished runner up twice. Between 1960 and 1972, he had twelve top 5 finishes in goals. Just one season where he finished 6th during that span. That's pretty damn dominant. Then he went to play in another league. If he doesn't go to another league, Ovechkin is likely chasing him for all-time leader in goals. If you're going to diminish Hull's accomplishments because of the era (or because you don't like him personally) you can also pick apart other eras similarly. Players should only be judged by their era and their peers. And before you go there, there wasn't a lot of NHL ready talent in Europe during Hull's time. He played against the best professionals there were. As if kipwinger isn't annoying enough, he now has an avatar we all want to punch.

Huh? Why are you arguing with yourself. If you read through my posts, I never ranked either player. If you want to rank Ovechkin as a better goal scorer, that's your opinion. An argument can certainly be made. I don't care. People started diminishing Gretzky's accomplishments during the 1980's, Bobby Hull's era and the goalies in it, etc. Ovechkin would score 100 goals in the 1980's, etc. I responded with what I think about player sizes during Hull's era vs. today and what I think about the 1980's in general and Gretzky's peers. You said you couldn't judge Gretzky's totals based on the era he was in. I told you what I think about that. There's nothing wrong with Gretzky's era and no reason why it cannot be judged fairly.

LOL. Whatever makes you feel better. You've proven nothing other than sweeping statements I normally hear about different eras of hockey as compared to today's era.

Well, you asked for it. You said that 1982 was the easiest season to score ever. Yet I pointed out that only two players besides Gretzky even scored 60 goals that year. If it was such an easy season to score, presumably other great goal scorers from that year should have hit 70+ goals. Gretzky's numbers diminished in the 90's after that prick Gary Suter injured him. He was never quite the same. That said, he still led the NHL in points during the 90's. So even with European influx, we're still talking about the best point scorer of the decade. The European influx has nothing to do with Gretzky's goal totals diminishing. Otherwise, we'd have to explain why he led the league in points in the 90's but not goals. Did European players somehow stop him from goals but not assists? And where do you get Gretzky only playing against half the world's best? In the 80's, outside of the Soviet Union, countries like Sweden, Finland, and the Czech Republic weren't quite as strong with NHL quality players as they later became. It certainly wasn't half the world's best players that Gretzky was dominating. Another fallacy about 1980's hockey. And as I pointed out, Gretzky still led the NHL in points in the 90's.

Hull was only 5’10 and if you see photos of him, you’ll see he was built like a tank. Same with Howe. That is small compared to today’s players. Ovechkin wouldn’t be 6’3 235 lbs back then. He also wouldn’t be using a composite stick.

Who was the next highest goal scorer that year? I'll answer that for you. It was Mike Bossy with 64 goals. If it was an easy era to score goals, how come Bossy didn't score more? Why did only two other players score 60 besides Gretzky? When has Ovechkin ever dominated his peers like that? The fact is, Ovechkin in his best years never dominated his peers in goal scoring like Gretzky did. He never finished with 25 or 30 more goals than the next player. All the people bringing up the high scoring in the 80's have no reply to that. We're supposed to believe that Ovechkin would score 100 goals, while the next highest guy not counting Gretzky would have 60. When has Ovechkin ever shown that kind of statistical gap versus his peers? You guys are full of it.

What's the rationale for ranking Ovechkin above Lemieux? He scored more overall goals? Lemieux played in a higher scoring era? Doesn't work that way. Ovechkin would have to use worse equipment and be in worse shape after the age of 30. There's a reason there weren't too many 35 year olds putting up huge numbers in those days. Fitness, nutrition, and evolution has changed in sports. It's easier now for athletes to play well into later years. Yeah, let's close the thread. Not even close. What about your boy Bobby Hull?

Just imagine the average Wings game at the LCA, but in the playoffs.

Can't you make up some dudes with American names? NCAA my ass.

They should have left him in to see if he pulls a Patrick Roy by going over to Blashill and Yzerman and telling them that he'll never play again for the franchise. Next day, we trade him to Colorado for a case of Coors Light and Stephane Fiset.

I just created an account at the Senators forum. Good luck guys.

Jimmy Howard should retire and become the goalie coach.

All you whiners can go join the Oilers forum, if you're so obsessed with #1 centers.

Akbars? Like that thing terrorists chant before they blow stuff up?

We're talking about Detroit. Not the Midwest. Detroit is Mid-North.

A German captain? I don't think so. Too many Polish people living in Detroit.

Dude, Bertuzzi was a bottom tier player to start the season last year. As he got more opportunities, he got better. This year, he was on the top line to start the season. So of course he's outperforming last year's numbers. Mantha has a higher offensive ceiling than Larkin. However, Mantha is lazy and has hands made of porcelain. Didn't I already school you on this topic last week?

How many 4-1 games have we had this season?

Whatever, racist.

LOL. I thought Holland would get us McDavid. He owes us that trade for screwing this franchise over the last several seasons.

Maybe he can inject some life into Nielsen and Erne.

And will probably choke in the playoffs in Switzerland. Honestly, unlike Bourque, he doesn't deserve to win the Cup. In his prime, he underperformed in the biggest moments. I hope no contender bothers to acquire him.

Are you kidding? He should fit in nicely with this lineup.

They should have traded this bum years ago when he still had value. He's single-handedly made Bernier look like a decent starter this season. Think about that.