GMRwings1983

You're telling me Witkowski can't crack this lineup?

Burn the farm Kenny

Kelly finished top 10 in scoring three times during his stint in Detroit. That's pretty impressive for a defenseman who wasn't good offensively, according to you. He also twice led the league in shorthanded goals while in Detroit and finished top 10 in that category in eight separate seasons in Detroit. He scored a lot compared to his peers. You're just looking at the sexy numbers guys put up in later decades from the blue line and diminishing how good Kelly or Harvey were for their time. They were trailblazers but still not as aggressive offensively as players at their position later became. His overall resume with Detroit is more than worthy of being in the rafters. Six times on the first All-Star team and two times on the 2nd All-Star team. Four Stanley Cups. Only one Norris trophy, but they didn't start handing those out until 1954 (where he was the inaugural winner). Doug Harvey won seven of the next eight Norris trophies after that. The only reason he wasn't already retired in Detroit was because of the way he left the organization. And yes, Kelly switching to center is impressive, not to mention he was the top centerman on those dynasty Leafs teams in the 1960's. Getting rid of Kelly was the worst move in Red Wings history.

I'm guessing you don't know this, but Red Kelly played center when he went to Toronto. He switched positions. That's why his offensive numbers increased. I'm also assuming you meant 1961 and not 1971. Kelly was retired by 1971. And if you thought he was a defenseman who scored 70 points in 1961, then you should be anointing him the best defenseman ever, as that would be way above the norm for that era in defensemen. Nobody at that position could sniff those kind of numbers in 1961. Not sure how all your adjusted stats didn't catch that anomaly.

Who the hell is Andy Hilbert?

Well, if you understood that nobody was putting up monster stats back then, especially on the blue line, you wouldn't be saying that. Look at Doug Harvey's numbers and keep in mind, he played with about twice as many HHOF players than Kelly did on those Red Wings teams. The game was played at a slower pace in those days. Guys played much longer shifts, sometimes over 5 minutes long. The idea of short shifts and conserving energy was foreign to the game. Kelly's stats were impressive relative to that era. He's regarded by most hockey historians as a top 10 all time defenseman. They know about his stats as compared to say Paul Coffey's stats. Why do you think most rate him ahead of Coffey?

Kelly didn't have inflated stats. Defensemen weren't putting up monster numbers in those days. That came later with Bobby Orr, and then by the 1980's, every good defenseman seemed to score a lot.

Well, back then all the best players were spread out over only six teams. Now you have them spread out over more teams. You don't see teams anymore with 5 or 6 Hall of Famers on one roster. I don't think that era was lacking talent at all. There were fewer teams on which the latent was spread over. The Wings alone had Howe, Lindsay, Sawchuk, Abel, Delvecchio, Kelly, and Pronovost. Now those players would likely play on six separate teams.

Well, you have to compare players relative to their era. It is difficult, but that's the way it should be done. Otherwise, you could say that Jensen or Hronek would dominate the 1950's, if transported there via time machine, because of the evolution of the game.

He's one of the 10 best defensemen ever.

They wanted him to have a Patrick Roy moment, where he comes up to the coach and tells him he's never playing for this franchise again. After the way Tatar ended up in Vegas, I'd be surprised if anyone wants to overpay for his twin brother Nyquist.

I know.

Is there any other color they can paint those seats at LCA?

So we should have drafted Doctor Zhivago instead of Larkin?

I would think Norm Ullman would be the next choice from that older Wings days. You know, I've never thought about Pronovost's number being retired. Interesting question.

Dude, I'd rather see the Undertaker wrestle again than watch Kronwall play again. He looks done.

Would anyone here have a problem if Abdelkader randomly grabbed Matthews and started pounding away?

Mickey Redmond has become the perfect "heel" announcer, a la Jerry Lawler.

Insert Zach Hyman joke.

I'm really starting to dislike this pig nosed Arizona boy. DeKeyser may be the greatest argument against the existence of God.

This arena sucks on TV. Any chance they can move back to the JLA?

Just watched DeKeyser's fight. Oh boy. Just when I thought he couldn't be a bigger wimp. A 6'3 turkey.

About damn time. One of the best players in NHL history, and his resume as a Red Wing is spectacular.

Hey, remember how good this team was in the preseason?

People used message forums in 2005?