GMRwings1983

Rob Blake Peter Forsberg Pavel Bure Adam Foote Sergey Zubov Paul Kariya Keith Tkachuk Alexander Mogilny Mark Recchi Vincent Damphousse Joe Nieuwendyk Pierre Turgeon Peter Bondra For me personally, I think Forsberg, Blake, Foote, Recchi and Niewendyk are all guys who should make it. Bure is the one that I'm mixed about. The others I don't believe should make it. Who do you guys think should get in from this list?

Since many pro-enforcer posters don't appear on LGW anymore, naturally I'm in the minority on my side of the debate. The only Wings fans I meet are the ones on this forum, so I am probably generalizing about all Wings fans a bit too much, but from the majority of the posts here, I'm assuming that Wings fans aren't too thrilled about us having either Downey or any enforcer playing next year. I'm also assuming that most Wings fans don't feel the importance and need of having a fighter on the team, because we haven't had one for years.

Sorry, but "team toughness" doesn't count. No one actually knows what the hell that phrase means. To me they're one and the same, unless you're talking about mental toughness, which is of course beyond the realm of this sad debate.

I didn't say understand, I said understated. There's a difference there, dictionary boy. And all those teams you mentioned, with the exception of ***** Montreal, have carried a lot more toughness than the Wings over the years. That makes a big difference between the two fanbases. The difference is that their majority likes enforcers, while our majority doesn't. Of course, there will always be a few dissenters, but for the most part, they're more conditioned to having toughness. Yes, I know we're more successful, but that isn't tied to toughness one way or another.

Take it easy with the age talk. I was just making a point that most Wings fans on this board differ from other teams' fans since they don't seem to care whether they have an enforcer on their team or not. I realize that it wasn't always this way in Detroit, and that fans have just been conditioned this way by having too many non-fighting teams over the years. Also, not all those teams won the Stanley Cup, so don't come back at me with that crap. My age has nothing to do with my knowledge of history, or my knowledge of Wings history. I don't think I understated anything in my post. Come to think of it, last year was a step in the right direction towards having an enforcer full time on this team. I'd hate to see that change just because some scrub like Kopecky is going to be healthy. I want the team to keep going the right direction in the toughness department.

I doubt it. People have become enamored with some of our 4th liners, and seem unwilling to let go of anyone on the roster other than Lilja and Chelios. Enforcers aren't supposed to be talented. You guys have unrealistic expectations in only wanting an enforcer who can score goals. A guy like Scott Hartnell isn't really an enforcer, and neither is Chris Neil, although I'd like to have him. I loved Downey's presence on the roster last year, and I'd love to see it repeated or improved. The fact that we still don't have an enforcer signed for next year bugs me. BTW, Kocur would be the equivalent of an untalented goon. Wings fans just loved him because he was a presence in Detroit for so long. In fact, enforcers are pretty popular players everywhere in the league amongst fans. I guess it's been too long for Wings fans to remember what it's like to have a true enforcer on the team. That's why so many of you are adamant against us needing one.

There's no reason to point fingers you know. But the one you mentioned is a good start. I'm just humored by the posters who claim they're not anti-fighting, and then argue about how insignificant enforcers are beyond the point of entertainment, and how the Wings don't need fighting, and how fighters are all unskilled meaningless players to have on a team. It's just the pure hypocrisy that angers me. You guys say one thing, and then post another.

What do you mean it worked? The anti-fighting posters here have already determined that neither Downey nor McCarty were even part of the team last season. Us fight fans apparently imagined their existence on the team. Who is this Downey that you speak of?

Hey, remember that time when Holmstrom got ran by Pronger from behind, and then came back playing like s*** the rest of the series? Remember that time when the Flyers ran our players a few years ago and no one had the balls to stand up for each other? Just remember that stupid posts can go both ways, Dabura.

Et tu, Brute?

Enforcers aren't just there for fighting, there is a lot of rough stuff that often goes on in the playoffs. The only ones we had last year were a few scrums against the Pens. The year before that we pussied out against the Flames and Ducks. Make whatever excuses you want, but the fact is we pussied out and skated away and it was rather embarassing for me to watch as a Wings fan. You guys are once again detracting from the point. I want an enforcer for the regular season where it's most important. If we also have one in the playoffs, then it's a bonus. But for the regular season it's something worth having on your team especially if everyone else has one. It's a copycat league, after all. Sure we just won the Cup, but the year before that a team full of enforcers won the Cup. Basically, one enforcer won't hurt in my opinion. Some of you disagree with that for whatever paranoid reasons, suggesting that we'll have to change our whole strategy when we just went through most of last season with an enforcer, and a pretty successful outcome.

If Babcock didn't believe in the WIngs fighting, he wouldn't have allowed Downey to make the team, and would have replaced him with anyone in GR. In the playoffs, fighting wasn't necessary because of the opposition that we played. In all, dressing one enforcer isn't going to make the detrimental changes that you suggest to the team's strategy. It didn't make those changes during the games that Downey played in the regular season. It didnt' have detriments when McCarty played in the playoffs either. Your argument just doesn't hold up.

I'm tired of trying to justify my position to a hypocrite who says he's not anti-enforcer, and then makes half page posts justifying the exact opposite. Make up your mind.

Make whatever excuses you want, but the Ducks wore the Wings down by the end of the series. The previous poster was right about us not needing toughness for this year's playoffs.

I'll always remember Paul Kariya for his graceful dives and his Keanu Reeves lookalike appearance. I'll always remember Adam Foote for being a dirty, ugly S.O.B. That still doesn't mean either of them should get in.

If you pro-hockey player, you wouldn't talk about enforcers as if they're not even part of the team. I guarantee you the guys in the locker room didn't think of Downey or Mac in that kind of fashion. Character guys are important to every team, or else skilled players would have to fill in those roles. You either don't know much about hockey, or you've been watching some European league for too damn long. In brief, enforcers are hockey players. That's what their profession is whether you like it or not.

That's funny coming from you, stat man. Also, you're too biased towards Ozzie, so don't think the voters are going to share your bias. I have no feelings for Andreychuk one way or another. I just think he'll get in due to his consistency in scoring. Recchi was never the best right winger in the league either. For that matter, I could argue that Sakic was never the best center in the league. What does any of this prove? Who cares if the guy wasn't the best at his position?

There is no need for more fighting. In fact, according to norrisnick, Downey and McCarty held the team back last year from going to where it wanted to go. You can figure out for yourself where that might be. Oh but I forgot, you're not anti-enforcer so there's no need to argue with you.

Didn't you hear? If not for Downey and McCarty, we would have gone 98-0 this season. Norrisnick is starting to crack me up with his theories on enforcers.

Now you're making things up. McCarty was not a huge liability to the team in any way. He wasn't a huge help, but judging from past history, Kopecky wouldn't have done better. And how would we have done better than winning the Cup. Could we have gone undefeated in the playoffs if not for Mac?

Teams need balance. We have enough skill as it is to be able to afford an untalented goon. Case in point, look at Downey last year when he played around 50 games, and the team was no worse off from the fact that he couldn't score. Also, don't forget that McCarty didn't exactly put up huge numbers in the playoffs, yet he played in most of the games. What did that hurt? Nothing, we still won the Cup. The 4th line is supposed to be for grit and toughness. If one guy on the 4th line isn't scoring, it's not going to make the team that much worse. It isn't an enforcer's job. If it was otherwise, no team in the league would dress enforcers.

600 goals and a Stanley Cup is pretty unprecedented not to be in the HOF. Recchi is not a sure thing because of how long it took a guy like Glenn Anderson to make it. Also, if I'm not mistaken, Andreychuk is the all-time leader in PP goals. Take that for what it's worth, but a guy who could score goals like that should be in the HOF. And in case you're wondering, I also think Ciccarrelli should be in the HOF.

How about winning the game and at the same time having someone there who's job is to stand up for guys. What would that take away from the team? In my opinion, nothing. If a team is trying to goon it up, that's part of hockey. It always has been and will be until fighting is completely taken out of the game. Fighting back is not dishonorable, despite what you might be suggesting.

I never said that. I believe we would still have success on the scoreboard, but I still personally don't like seeing our guys get run at knowing that no one will back them up. And I'm not content with guys like Datsyuk or Stuart doing any of the fighting either. There's more to pride than winning on the scoreboard.

I guess some of you guys are actually convinced that if the Wings got into more fights, we wouldn't have as much success. Several of you have argued that point or danced around it in some way. I can't agree that there's any correlation there. If Downey had 35 fights last year, we would have finished middle of the pack in fights, and would still have won the Cup. I don't see the Wings system taking any hits if there's more fights.