GMRwings1983

Those two aren't related. Stop changing the topic. No one is downplaying the Cup win. Thanks, I feel much better about that game already.

I don't care how the Flyers did that year. I was embarassed that night to be a Wings fan, even if it was O.K. with most posters here. And that doesn't mean I wanted to be a Flyers fan, it just means it was sad to watch and I don't want it repeated. Thankfully, nothing like that happened last year.

We don't care that much, but the fact that Holland was willing to carry some fighters last year, regardless of what norrisnick thinks, does suggest that the Wings cared somewhat about their toughness and willingness to stick up for teammates. To abandon all that now would be a mistake. Remember that Flyers game 2 years ago? It's situations like that night that I don't want to see repeated in the regular season.

That might sound cruel, but it's true. Teams will respect the Wings more if we have guys who they know won't let our players be messed with without retaliation. As I just posted, the fact that we're a talented team is already respected and feared all around the league. However, there is still a perception that we aren't willing to fight back. And by fight back I'm talking about having an enforcer do it, and not Pavel Datsyuk when the refs are in there.

You're missing the point. Respect is earned by fighting back in all walks of life. In the next game Downey did challenge Walker so as to tell him that the Wings weren't going to be taken lightly. That's what an enforcer's job is. Without Downey, we wouldn't have anybody to answer the bell like that and send a message to the other team physically. Messages on the scoreboard aren't everything. Teams already know that we're good on the scoreboard, but it's still important to let them know that we aren't afraid to fight back and that we have guys who can do it.

Which is a knock on Downey if he did indeed play in that game, although the way I remember it, he played in the next game and not that one.

Yes there is. You must be a big Peter Forsberg fan. Cover up?

Come to think of it, I don't know why the Wizards are up there. They're an MLS team and based on that, every MLS team could have been on the list. That's why lists like this are stupid and idiotic. There's no pattern to them.

We're lucky Franzen didn't get a concussion. That's what I don't want to see happen and it easily could have.

The point I was making is that if teams have no enforcers to fight against on the other side, they're going to start picking on non-fighters to fight. I don't want to see our skilled players be asked to do more than what they're capable of.

It happened when Matt Walker went after Franzen when he hit Jackman. Or did you forget that already?

Where's your cogent argument? I haven't seen it yet. It must be all in your head, but you just can't get it out even in those half-page posts.

Maybe you're misunderstanding what I mean by "kick our asses". Cheapshotting our players and beating them up in fights is the equivalent of kicking our asses. And pointing at the scoreboard is not the best form of physical retaliation. I guess we differ in that I want us to retaliate physically as well as on the scoreboard. You're only content with having one. And what did the Stars ever do that was physical?

A warm body? Now you are starting to sound even more ridiculous. Wouldn't Kopecky or Lebda be warm bodies? How about Hudler who Babcock had rotting on the 4th line all year? There was a reason Downey was on the team, namely because Ken Holland whom you all worship felt that that particular area needed to be addressed. I hope he doesn't change his mind on that, while you seem to think Holland did it for no reason except to add someone to the roster. Why wouldn't Holland have just inserted a "skilled player" in there if all he cared about was a warm body? I didn't say they weren't going to be physical again, I just said that other teams were going to kick their asses instead of having Downey or Mac settle those battles for them. History shows that neither Stuart nor Kronwall are going to drop the gloves. If I ever for once thought about supporting other teams, I wouldn't be here bitching. Instead I would have cheered for those teams long ago. However, anyone who knows me here knows that I absolutely and indefinitely despise every other team in the league. I just want us to have more fighters. No need for you to make any absurd suggestions for me. Maybe you should go cheer for some European league team.

They will when they're getting their ass kicked by someone else's fighters. Yeah, Mac wasn't a great fighter at this point, but at least he knew his job. Who's going to take his beatings now? Franzen? Stuart? Kronwall? Take your pick. That argument is worth s***. We're not a better team because we lost 3 physical players, we're just a better team because we signed Hossa. If those guys are so meaningless, how come Babcock and the great Kenny Holland even bothered using them? Why didn't we just replace them the entire season with some euro *******? Why did Holland even use Downey at all? Could it be because he felt there was some need for a physical player that could stand up for his teammates? Or do you have the real answer?

Soccer as it's called in this country. That's why you haven't heard of it.

How are we better? Every team needs balance. If we lose those 3, we're once again back to a one-dimensional team full of softies who know that no one will back them up if they try to play more physical themselves. Do you want to see Franzen and Sammy get beat up and embarassed again? I sure as hell don't. Well, at least not with Franzen.

What is your definition of "can play hockey"? What are you, his publicist? He's pretty much stated throughout this thread that he feels fighters are useless, yet you keep saying that no one thinks that way. You need to work on your comprehension skills instead of questioning everyone else's.

Good post, but I believe there is value to the deterrence argument, which most people who have played hockey believe in. It's only common sense that teams will be more willing to go after skill players when they know that no one from the other side will be there to retaliate or go after their skill players in turn. It's always easiest to bully someone who has no backup or won't fight back. For some reason, several posters here have totally ignored that notion, and I can't understand why everyone thinks enforcers have all of a sudden become meaningless. These aren't even my ideas, since enforcers deterring other teams is something which has been preached for decades. Yet, many people in this thread are willing to overlook all that and then call me out for it, like I'm the only one who believes in this stuff.

There was no beat down, it was just a scrum. Datsyuk got lucky that the refs stepped in, or else Roberts would have murdered him and everyone on LGW would have been begging for Downey to play in the next game for revenge. But once again, that was the playoffs, and I'm mostly interested in us either retaining Downey for the regular season or bringing in another enforcer. What we do with that enforcer in the playoffs depends mostly on matchups.

I want an enforcer for the regular season. I don't expect one for the playoffs unless the situation calls for it. Didn't you hear? Hordichuk is an enforcer which means that there's no use for him in today's NHL since fighters don't deter or do anything useful besides entertain fans like me. You're preaching to the wrong crowd here. People are saying that they don't have anything against enforcers, yet at the same time they write something in their next post about how meaningless and useless enforcers are. They hypocrisy here is getting silly. Hell, norrisnick is the only non-hypocritical poster since he's been hinting all along about how useless he believes enforcers are. Everyone else needs to make up their damned minds.

Maybe, but the chances are against it. I don't see someone at his age dropping off so suddenly, and then out of nowhere picking it up again. Last year was just his age catching up with him.

That's the same thing I could say about players who are afraid to fight. You're defeating your own argument now.

That pretty much sums up what I thought you'd say. Duck and cover. Just tell that to Franzen or Sammy or any other Wing who was jumped in recent memory into a fight they didn't have to take.

Kronwall will have to fight when someone jumps him. It's not like it's going to be his choice. Most other big hitters around the league have to drop them from time to time. Also, Downey played in the next game when he fought Walker. That night it was Franzen all by himself. If my memory is incorrect, then that's on Babcock, because Downey was not put out there to retaliate in that very game. But as I remember it, he didn't play that night.