StormJH1

Few days later, and I still HATE this signing. It's far worse than when we gave formerly-hated players like Chelios or Bertuzzi a chance in the Winged Wheel. Those were elite players where you could see the upside of adding them as affordable, declining veterans. Tootoo has never been a good player. And for the people who say that I only hate him because he's an agitator, and I'll love him on our team: wrong. An "agitator" is one thing - Tootoo is much more akin to a Matt Cooke or Sean Avery type player who plays selfishly and will take dumb penalties. Nashville had even seemed to figure that out and rolled back his playing time significantly. I feel like everything I always brag about the Red Wings in terms of playing smart finesse hockey, and winning a Cup with only 11 fighting majors goes out the window when we employ crap like this.

Comments like this make me so ANGRY! What is a "Hossa-esque" situation, exactly? You're telling me if Semin scored 40 goals in 74 games with excellent two-way play (as Hossa did), and we only had to commit money for one season, you'd be pissed? Hossa was a mercenary. That was the whole POINT of signing him. If Nick Lidstrom's last second shot happens to sneak by M-A Fleury and the Wings happen to win that one Game 7 in overtime, what would you think of the 08-09 team then? Hossa had 6 G and 9 A in the '09 Playoffs and didn't miss a game even though his shoulder was completely shredded. Datsyuk missed several games, came back and had only 1 G and 8 A in 16 games, yet I've never heard one person call out Pavel for "disappearing" in the '09 Playoffs. There have been great players that have played hard for this organization, only to have the fanbase poop all over them the second they're out the door. To varying degrees, the names Chevelade, Fedorov, Coffey, Primeau, Osgood (in '01, before he came back), Joseph, Legacy, and (the worst one) Fedorov all come to mind. It's not a prerequisite as a fan to smear every former Red Wing, yet it happens on this forum far too often. Not every player can be Steve Yzerman or Nick Lidstrom. Some players are signed not to be career Red Wings, but to serve a very specific role for a short period of time. If Parise doesn't work out (seems unlikely to come here) and we address the defense with Suter or a trade, I'm at least willing to consider a reasonable deal for Semin as an option. He's not going to kill THIS coach. The Russians have a almost Larionov-like level of respect for Datsyuk (listen to Geno Malkin talk about him), whereas Ovechkin is viewed as a talented clown. Keep your options open.

I live in Minny. Nobody here knows anything more about what's going on. Lou Nanne, however, is extremely well connected and might be getting hints from J.P. Parise. Earlier today I was hearing MIN vs. PIT...but more recently, there's been steam for NJ and CHI. Also, nobody has said that Detroit is out of it.

Franzen's contract is long, but it's also very cap friendly at about $3.9 million per. They signed that one around the time of the Zetterberg, Pronger, and Lunongo deals when it was still a bit of a gray area how you could circumvent the cap with longer deals. The Kovalchuk signing forced teams to be more cautious. I think Franzen should absolutely be considered if they go the trade route...his perception around the league should be good enough that he could get decent value in return. I would think Franzen plus a prospect, pick, or both could be a fairly even deal, depending on which other pieces are involved.

My first take on this thread... I hate this signing. In the context of a Suter signing, or a less likely Parise signing or mega-trade, its terribleness might get lost, but the fact that we might make other good moves doesn't change what THIS move is. I know that we needed a right hand PP shot. I know the Swedes on this team (two of whom are probably retired) liked him and vouched for his signing the first time. I know that he did a lot of good things in the Winged Wheel and even had some solid playoff moments in '08 and '09. But the fact is that we let him go after '09 because he was in line to double his salary from a $1.2 mil cap hit to $2.5 mil. Vancouver gave that to him for 3 years. His numbers on VAN (a very offensive oriented, talent team) were great the first year, then leveled off in year 2. He had a pretty good pace going in Florida, but only played a half season. But the guy is now 35 years old and will make nearly THREE TIMES what he did his first time around as a Wing. Thankfully, it's only 2 years, but it comes with a no-trade clause. I just don't understand this pattern of bringing in guys who were previously in the organization and then giving them a RAISE to hopefully reproduce what they did a few years ago (Bertuzzi, Quincey, Sammuelsson). Signings like this and Tootoo only lessen the chance of a young player like Helm or Abdelkader getting that playing time and becoming important contributors (and at a low cost).

Yeah you're right, I'm not mad at the Illitch family. But it sucks that there are SO many seats to this thing, and yet the only way to get one is the secondary market. 150 is bad enough, but I think the StubHub prices are going to be far worse. Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

This is absolutely price gouging, and it sucks. I really, really, would like to go to this. But I live in Minnesota, and would want to attend with my brother or some friends still in the Detroit area. For me to justify staying away from home over New Years', and then explain to my wife that this game/event costs about 4 or 5 times more than I would normally pay to attend a hockey game...yeah, I wouldn't blame her for being pissed. And it's sad because a few years ago when I was hoping for this to happen, I would have said there's NO WAY I'm missing it if it comes to Detroit. But now I'm not too sure. Oh well, I'm equally excited for 24/7. Putting a camera in front of Datysuk for a whole month has to be comedy gold. I guess hadn't fully appreciated the Toronto factor. Hockeytown's demand for this would have been enough...now I'm kind of wishing we were playing this game against Phoenix. Or at least some other team that can't draw like this from 4 hours away.

That's all fine and good, but it still poses the same underlying problem as the Zetterberg, Franzen, and (original) Kovalchuk deals...Crosby is not like other players. There is a significant chance that a major concussion could end his career...at ANY time. Look at what happened with Pronger, by the way...he might be done. Is Crosby retires before his mid-30's, the deal cheats the Cap, end of story. Is there any good reason why the cap hit isn't simply determined by what the player makes THAT year? Isn't that how the NBA does it? I suppose you could then back load contracts, but that risks pissing off a player who may never see that money at the back end.

Hmm. Well, he deserves the money, but I'm not really sure I'd classify it as a "steal". Yes, if he misses an ENTIRE year b/c of concussion, you could LTIR him and get the cap money (or a big chunk of it). But even before his concussions, he has missed time from other injuries. 53 games played in 07-08, and came back too early THIS year. Yeah, he looked great when he came back, but it was 22 games total. He could literally bump into a teammate again and be screwed. (Crap, he was FIGHTING in the playoffs, and he started the fight!) I assume they didn't do anything too suspect with front loading the salary, because in Crosby's case, he could be forced to "retire" at age 28, 32, 35, whatever. And if he retires at one of THOSE ages and gets paid 12 million a year with a 8.7 mil cap hit, hmm.

First, Shanny is definitely a Hall of Famer, but the voting is messed up (Doesnt Doc Emrick have a vote?) and this was a very strong class. I assume he's in next year and this is all but forgotten. But on the number retirement, totally disagree. I'm not sure why it's forgotten that Fedorov was an important part of the Wings becoming a dynasty before Shanny was traded here. Shanny was not a "career Red Wing" either, yet people get mad at Fedorov for leaving as opposed to signing what would have invariably been a bad contract for an aging superstar. Wings fan pretend like the '95 Final didnt happen, but Fedorov was an MVP caliber player at that time. Also, the "floating around" garbage is more based in North American xenophobia than fact. Fedorov was an ELITE defensive player who happened to be one of the most dangerous offensive forces in the league. He even played defense on several occasions (including the Fight Night at the Joe game). Could you imagine Bure or Shanny skating backwards playing D? The guy could do it all. I'm fine with neither 14 or 91 being retired, but you can't retire 14 w/o also considering 91 and 30. Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

By the way, I thought the fact that Derek Meech, Nyquist , (and others?) have already worn #14 post-Shanny was cited on LGW as proof that the Wings had no intent of retiring it. Nobody seems to think that a Konstantinov number retirement is imminent, yet nobody (not even Hull) will touch that number in Hockeytown. So it seems counterintuitive that they would print up #14 jerseys for rookies if they planned on retiring it down the road.

Consider the following: The Red Wings are an Original Six team, yet have only six (currently or officially) retired numbers. The Montreal Canadiens have retired 17. The Bruins have retired 10. However, the Maple Leafs use an "honoured" system for guys like Wendel Clark, Mats Sundin, etc...their numbers are recognized but left in circulation. Under that approach, they've only actually retired TWO numbers, though the bar for getting "honoured" is obviously far lower than getting a number retired. The problem with retiring Shanahan's is that if you do that, there are strong rationales for also retiring other numbers, such as Fedorov and Osgood. I like to start with the question of "Should this player's number be retired somewhere?" In other words, had he played for one team exclusively, are the merits of his career sufficent for that degree of recognition. I think with Shanahan and Fedorov, the answer is absolutely yes. Osgood? Hmm, maybe, maybe not. Yet, if you asked people on this board, more people would want to see Shanny's number retired than Fedorov, and many would put Osgood in front of Fedorov too. I think that's just wrong. While Yzerman's importance is unquestioned, don't forget that this team didn't truly go from Dead Wings to perennial playoff team (and still going) until Fedorov (and Lidstrom) came along. They are the Scottie Pippen to Yzerman's Michael Jordan. So, really, I could go either way on this, but if you have to go ALL the way in whatever direction you choose. If you feel that 3 Cups in 6 seasons ('97 to '02) is a significant achievement, and far more significant in a modern league with 26 to 30 teams than it would have been in the 40's or 50's, then I am okay with recognizing that through multiple retired numbers for players who were integral in that success. But if you feel that Yzerman and Lidstrom are the only two worthy of that recognition, then cut it off. If you choose that route, however, I have serious doubts that Datsyuk or Zetterberg could ever have their numbers retired at the current place. Unless Datsyuk wins additional Cups, retiring #13 but NOT #91, to me, makes no sense whatsoever.

I LOVED that pickup by Yzerman. Reminds me of how the Coyotes landed Bryzgalov (albeit thru waivers), who was overqualified to be a backup and instantly changed that franchise. Oh, and in case it doesn't work out, the Bolts drafted the Russian goalie who played so well in juniors also. I don't know how you trade for Luongo with that ridiculous contract. He's too much of a headcase to be a "final piece" and the contract would be a huge burden on a team that needs to add additional star power. Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

You're getting ahead of yourself. I don't want to play hypotheticals with all the bad things that could happen, but haven't in 2+ decades. There have been other elite GMs that occasionally missed the playoffs, I'm sure. It would depend on the circumstances. But I don't see that from this squad. You have to keep in mind that, yes, Lidstrom is gone, the team core is getting older, and we aren't developing many snipers. But in the NHL, it is truly possible to acquire talented players in their 20's using a combination of prospects and picks. Look how easily Jeff Carter, Mike Richards, and Phil Kessel were moved. Phaneuf too. Heatley and Kovalchuk were moved in their prime via trade. Some of these players thrive in a change of scenery. And if the Wings acquire just one or two of those players in the next year or two, I think the outlook suddenly looks a lot better. Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

It's funny how devastating the 04-05 lockout was, yet people seem to assume that the CBA will inevitably be resolved this time around. In a way, I understand it, since the league has been surprisingly profitable since then. Then again, the NFL is much more successful, yet they nearly lost games and have a terrible labor situation right now. You wonder if player safety/concussions could be a wildcard in this dispute, also. I was so pissed that the players scrapped that plan for leverage. No plan is perfect, but I thought that could've been a huge improvement for the league.

Some very insightful comments in here... I think that Holland's "legacy" was already cemented by the '08 Cup. To me, that Cup was so essential in shaking the label that the Red Wings were the Yankees of the NHL. To replace a generation of players like Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanny, etc. without the aid of high draft picks or limitless spending proved that there was more to the Wings than just money. I get a little annoyed when people refer to any move that doesn't result in a Cup as a failure. Like Hossa in '09. Hossa carried the team through an inconsistent regular season, then played through a significant injury in the playoffs, while Datsyuk did the same, but only scored 1 goal in 16 games (IIRC). The fact is that Cup winning teams like PIT, CHI, and LA could NOT have been built if those teams drafted from the position the Wings have from the early 90's to the present. Holland's ability to find and replace talent against those odds may not last forever, but don't ever forget that it worked for a damn long time.

Didnt read the 7 pages of this thread, but I live in MN and they've been all over Parise all year. A lot of people even feel it's more likely than not he signs here (and if that happens, Suter too). I can't see it. Hometown connection is nice and all but this guy was two games away from the Cup. The Wild are stockpiling young talent, but they're still years away. Parise has to commit to a franchise for probably 8 or 10 years in this deal - he needs certainty that things are run well, plus the chance to compete in his prime.

Thanks for posting! Very excited about this pick. I'm sure he has tons of holes in his game but if you're going to miss in round 4, miss on a guy who has some elite skills and almost endless upside if he puts it together. I can think of a lot of "speed only" guys who entered the league and developed their other skills enough to become serviceable NHLers - Helm, Dandienault, Joe Juneau, Maxim Afinogenov....

I like both of those players, but we need to remember that this isn't July 2001. We can't just single out two guys from anywhere in the league and say "We'll take those two, thanks". Yes, Detroit has a great organizational reputation and that Original Six "mystique", but they also have a slight reputation as a once-dominant power on the decline. Ryan Suter, after years of playing against (and likely building up some distaste for the Wings) may decide he doesn't want to have to deal with being Lidstrom's replacement. This is a guy who wasn't even the most celebrated defenseman on his team, and never scored more than 8 goals in a season. It's unlikely he could ever be "good enough" for this fanbase, unless we stumbled into a Cup Final again. But given our needs (and our cap space), yes, I absolutely want him on the team. Parise - I have similar questions about him wanting to come here. It's still possible he resigns in New Jersey (they did retain Kovalchuk when nobody thought they would). Also, I live in Minnesota, and there's been a careful "assumption" all year that he would come back home to play here. I actually don't agree with that, I think he wants to play for a winner. But there are other "winners" apart from Detroit. Parise has a lot of "grit" for a superstar - he does have that Yzerman-esque leadership quality to him. But he also had that knee injury that will give him problems again into his mid-30's, and he doesn't really stand out (to me) as an elite scorer. The numbers are there, but I feel like we'd be the same Detroit team we've been - immensely talented with veterans, but lacking that real explosiveness that you see from the younger Philadelphia, LA, etc. teams where it seems like anyone can score at any moment. I think if they want to come here, it will be more about that than it is about pure money. But it's dangerous to ASSUME that both guys will choose here over all other places.

I'd watch...if I didn't already have the game permanently saved on my iPod so I can see it any time I want. (Don't be too impressed though, I had to miss Games 5 & 6 live b/c I was out of the country on my honeymoon. Aggghhh! I left and we were up 3 games to 1, I came back, stepped off the plane and my brother handed me the white Championship hat. The whole thing felt surreal, bizarre, and kinda wrong) Hopefully you will soon. It's getting added to more and more cable packages, or at least the first-tier sports add-on. If you can't justify the cost of Center Ice, it's almost a necessity to following the league, since highlights on ESPN and other outlets are almost non-existent. Plus, I probably got to see an extra 5-10 out of market Red Wings games that I never would've seen on VS or NBC. (They replay some games at like 3am the following morning, which I DVR).

Okay, that's a pretty awesome story. In fact, the more of these I read in this thread, the more I do wish my wife cared about something that's as important as the Wings are to me. She did buy a Wings zip-up sweatshirt while we were in the "D" last year, which made me proud, but she could care less about the actual team. I think with her, the Wings just represent all things "Detroit", and she's one of those bitter ex-Detroiters who is now a transplant somewhere else, but still hates on Michigan (which doesn't really make sense to me). Being a Wings fan in Minnesota is a mixed bag...it's good because there is a lot of hockey here and the Wild fans aren't exactly hostile to Wings fans (and have a very facility to view NHL games in). The flipside of that is that it's actually a pretty marginal city for pro hockey. The Minnesotans understand the game, and love the Gophers and the High School tournament, and will drive their kids to 5am practices. But interest in the Wild, and especially the NHL as a whole, seems to take a backseat to the other sports options here, which was a disappointment to me.

My wife likes some sports (baseball, some football, racing, etc.), but doesn't understand hockey, particularly on TV (which I can understand). But her annoyance by my love for the Wings is to the point where she will openly root for the other team by the 2nd or 3rd round, because she knows that if the Wings are eliminated, I will pay less attention to the games. From an idealist's standpoint, I'll never know what it will be like to have a wife/girlfriend that loves the Wings, knows all the players, and watches the games with me. On the other hand, I've been a fan for so long now (dating back to the early 90's and pre-Cup years), that the selfish part of me likes the fact that the Wings are "my thing" that I do on my own. This is particularly true given that I'm an out-of-market fan now, so it's not like I'm surrounded by a bunch of other Wings fans anyway.

BTW, Fedorov doesn't qualify for this one, in my book, because he was far too successful to be labeled a scapegoat. If you're talking Wings whose legacy has been most unfairly tarnished, he might be right up at the front of the line (next to Larry Aurie). But the guy won three Stanley Cups with us, and even his most egregious act (the '97-'98 holdout) didn't prevent us from winning our second Cup. A friend of mine (who is a hockey fan, but not a Wings fan) had a great point about Fedorov: "Why would Wings fans be mad that Fedorov didn't re-sign with the Wings?!" His point was that Fedorov had one more productive year with Anaheim, and then a season was lost to the lockout and Fedorov got old very fast. The 2004 team was a mess anyway, and Fedorov (like Shanahan would have become a cap casualty shortly after the lockout). The constant insistence that every player behave like Steve Yzerman and play their entire careers with one team has spoiled some Wings fans beyond reason. Particularly when finishing out your career with the Wings may actually have done more harm than good, as was the case with Fedorov.

How they treated CuJo was disgraceful (particularly in light of the fact that this is usually a class act organization). But he isn't the biggest scapegoat in recent history. If you're talking about FAN reaction to the player (not just front office), Cheveldae has to be one of the immediate favorites, but Keith Primeau probably gets placed ahead of him because of how popular and productive he was for years in the Winged Wheel, and then he has one horrible playoff run in 1996 (17 games, 1 goal), and suddenly he became the face of everything wrong with this team in the playoffs (along with Coffey, who was also scapegoated, but actually shot at his own net). Primeau went on to have a very nice career in Carolina and Philadelphia, and his triple overtime goal against the Pens (2000, I think) made me very happy for him, since the knock on him was that he could never score in the clutch. Also, while it's recency makes it hard to place into context, the Marian Hossa treatment this past year really disappointed me about a lot of Wings fans. Hossa carried the Wings throughout the 2008-09 season during stretches where the team couldn't buy a goal. He had an okay first series against Columbus, had a goal outright robbed from him against Anaheim, and basically did nothing but skate around the perimeter with the puck for the remainder of the playoffs. After the playoffs, it was revealed that his shoulder was so badly damaged that he needed surgery on it even though that was probably the last thing he wanted to do after signing a 10-year contract with Chicago. Hossa played all 23 games of the playoffs and didn't complain about the injury. He scored 6 goals and had 9 assists. Meanwhile, Pavel Datsyuk had an injured foot and was limited to only 16 games. He scored ONE goal during our entire run through the '09 Playoffs. I love Pavel Datsyuk, but can somebody please tell me why Pavel was seen as the valiant hero braving injury, while Hossa (who scored 6 times as many goals) was viewed as the no-good bum? HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? Hossa came to the Wings as a one-year mercenary, and that's exactly how he left. Yet, I can't even wear his jersey in public because there are Wings fans dumb enough to think that he single handedly "cursed" us out of the '09 Cup. I don't put this "scapegoating" on the same level as Primeau, Cheveldae, and CuJo b/c it was just one year of service, but it still irks me nonetheless.

Went to two: the 12/23 home loss to Chicago (3-0), and the January 27th game in Minnesota (where I live) where we lost like 5-2 or something. My favorite game was the "revenge" game against Pittsburgh. Also, as an out-of-market fan, I probably saw more games this year than any year since I left Detroit thanks to NHL Network, the free Center Ice preview for a month (which, unfortunately, was the first month when we were terrible), Versus, and NBC.