dobbles

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Everything posted by dobbles

  1. dobbles

    The Dan Cleary Hate Zone

    unfortunately neither of them have done anything this season because they have both saw very limited action. however, based on how much cleary has regressed, i am confident with what eaves and tootoo brought ot the team last year being more valuable than cleary. especially when you consider that the slot cleary is in right now is 4th line winger. that is a slot that any of those 3 guys mentioned can fill. personally, i think tootoo has had a shorter leash than any player on the wings in recent memory. heck, look at that dumb penalty samuelsson took in the 1st period last game... had tootoo done that, he would have been benched the rest of the game and scratched for at least a week. there is a different standard expected of him than anyone else. and then people criticize him when he doesn't exceed expectations. he certainly will go out of position to make a hit at times, but is that a reason to send him to grand rapids and continue to play can cleary who is currently bringing nothing to the table? and regarding eaves, i believe he has always shown the ability to play his role. he has always had limited even strength minutes and yet still contributes. i think his 2 seasons of 12 and 13 goals show that he can contribute when asked. and i know those seasons are now several years ago, but unlike cleary, eaves has not shown that he is only a shell of his former self. bigger picture the issue isn't huge. when datsyuk and bertuzzi are back hopefully none of these guys are playing. as long as nyquist and tatar continue to get opportunities to show their value, i am happy.
  2. dobbles

    Shea Weber leaves game with Injury

    just because weber got lucky and there was no injury doesnt make what he did any less douchey. you mention players we have, but i would take a guy like bertuzzi who was just trying to fight a guy and they fell awkwardly over a guy like weber who intentionally smashed a star players face into the glass (and then joked about it with teammates) every day of the week. we base a lot of our punishment on the outcome and then just ignore the intent or the circumstances. its a stupid way of judging things.
  3. dobbles

    The Dan Cleary Hate Zone

    who cares if they cleared waivers? right now they are better options than cleary. if holland has the balls to put cleary on waivers, he wont get claimed either.
  4. dobbles

    Retaliation

    i certainly have no problem with that, i just think that in todays salary cap environment, combined with the dwindling number of players available that can be tough and skate a regular shift, that its become pretty tough to put together a winning team that is also tough. boston certainly is a good example. but they have that as their base. i think it would be hard to shift midstream for the wings because that is not the type of team they have built.
  5. dobbles

    Paterson and Mantha on Team Canada roster for WJC

    I saw Hudon on the roster and thought our 5th round pick from 2011 had really blossomed! Then I realized I had forgotten our guy was named Phillipe! I had heard some say that Paterson was really playing the best going into last year but that Subban got the minutes because of name recognition.
  6. dobbles

    Retaliation

    you are 100% right. cooke has cleaned up his game in recent years. i was just not thinking when i posted that. i was still stuck in like 2009 mentality! however, hopefully we can all agree that after the kane fight, he was still as douchey as ever. it was only when the league started coming down hard on him he got the message and either he decided he needed to change his ways or coaches/general managers told him he needed to chane his ways to stay in the league.
  7. dobbles

    Brendan Smith

    i was stuck with the canadian feed on the nhl network so i was not aware of such a comment! definitely spot on. the thing about players smiths age is they will definitely make mistakes. but you have to learn from them and also not let them affect your confidence and cause more mistakes.
  8. dobbles

    Retaliation

    If anything, Cooke is the poster boy for why fighting doesn't deter dirty play. Everyone remembers that time Evander Kane smashed Cookes face in durng a fight. Yet Cooke plays just as dirty as ever. He has no fear of retribution for dirty plays. Fights these days are mostly hug fests. Fights have to have helmets on. Most players have shields. What do dirty players have to fear from fighting? And to keep on topic, essentially what I am saying is that retribution makes the fans feel better, but it doesn't do anything to stop it from happening again. And I agree with Dabura. The Wings strategy of not playing the physical game works pretty well as most teams don't dress their 'goon' type players. It eliminates the need for the WIngs to carry a dedicated fighter.
  9. dobbles

    Weiss

    i agree 100%. and for those that insist he was coming on before getting injured, i think you are setting the bar pretty low. 'sucking less than he had been' was more of an apt description of his play during that time IMO. i liked the signing this summer and i still hope he can produce. the team needs him. but at some point the excuses need to stop. at some point the 'its only been X games' can no longer be valid. we are a third of the way through the season and he has not played like a top 6 player for hardly any of that time. because we have had good lines lately, i agree with the folks that say to throw him on the 1st with datsyuk and bertuzzi when they come back. see if that line can get something going. because finding linemates that work with weiss will be huge. the guy obviously has the skill to play in the nhl. finding the right winger and using the right strategy are crucial to figuring this out.
  10. dobbles

    Brendan Smith

    i wanted to bring this back up. first off, i had the same sequence on that play as you. i was worried but excited to see his new and improved decision making in practice. however, i wish he would have taken the same approach on that awful turnover last night. i agree with many in the GDT that placed blame on quincey as he definitely did set up smith to fail. however, it was also a great example of that same thinking that had been exhibited the last couple weeks... the attempted pass that got intercepted and led to a juicy 2 on 1 was a decision smith made a lot last year. his growth in the last few weeks has been partly from his willingness to eat the puck, take it behind the net, battle on the boards, etc. essentially the 'live to fight another day' approach. that has been working well for him in his own zone. seeing him revert back to the gunslinger type mentality with that play was tough. however, it was just one play, and overall i think he had a good game. really more than anything, i think it was an example of one of the things he needs to work on. not an indictment of the quality of play he has brought.
  11. dobbles

    Retaliation

    why are we even still talking about this? the cowen hit was reckless but not really dirty. its not like the wings have been victims of continuous dirty plays or anything. the part that was more disconcerting about that game was that ottawa did play us physical the entire game, specifically neil. however, tonight the wings showed that their skill could neutralize the physicality. when you combine that with how well we have played against boston so far, i really don't think the big bad east will be as tough as many make it out to be. the datsyuk injury is a freak occurrence. 9 out of 10 times a hit of that magnitude results in no injury. the over reaction here has made me sad. i guess there really are some people that think slapshot is an accurate representation of 21st century hockey...
  12. Just in case others missed it, this article was posted on the subject yesterday: http://redwings.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=693200
  13. dobbles

    Brendan Smith

    I think they are by the style they play. It's not like they work with these guys solo trying to make them more Lidstrom like, I just think that we are still playing the same type of game as we did when we had Lidstrom and Rafalski. There are two ways in which I see this the most. First, as kip noted, is that in our own zone they still push the quick pass instead of skating their way out of it. The other big place is the PP. We still run the Lidstrom/Holmstrom based PP even though neither are still here and there are not similar replacements for either role. Personally, I think thats the problem with the team in general. We often don't play styles that maximize our players skills. Bringing this back to Smith specifically, thats why I have tried to be patient with him and his gaffes. (especially when paired with Quincey) I am hoping Babcock can be more flexible on his system and tweak it. I think our record is showing that its not quite working.
  14. dobbles

    The Dan Cleary Hate Zone

    wow, this has to be a nomination for worst post of the year. these guys get paid millions of dollars to play a game that many of us play for fun and for free. (heck with the cost of ice time, we mostly pay to play!) so excuse me if i dont get all humbled by someone playing injured. the way your post is written you would think they just freed kidnapped children or ended slavery or something. additionally, just about everyone here has acknowledged they dont 'hate' dan cleary, they are just frustrated with his role on the team. many of us, myself included, actually acknowledge our problem isn't even really with cleary. its with the coach and gm for putting him out there when he shouldnt be. the only person in this thread being an internet tough guy is you by implying that no one is entitled to dislike cleary because he has some sort of god-like status in your mind. p.s. if this was some sort of sarcasm, i apologize... but it seems serious.
  15. dobbles

    The Dan Cleary Hate Zone

    this has been touched on before.... but the unfortunate side effect of this situation is that a lot of hate for hollan and babcock gets displaced onto cleary. i don't blame clear for wanting to come back to detroit. nor do i blame him for skating on whatever line he is told to be on. what angers me is that our gm would sign cleary knowing the roster problems it would create. the sad thing is that cleary isn't the worst contract up there as sammy is millions times worse. the issue is exacerbated by babcock. instead of playing cleary like the 4th liner he is getting paid to be, he gets put out there in quality minutes with top tier linemates. so i blame our gm for a bad signing and i blame our coach for misusing players. unfortunately, the player is the one that takes the blame publicly.
  16. dobbles

    Quincey

    There certainly is a lot of truth to that, but would you say over the last 5 years Holland has made more good moves than bad? When was the last time we got a steal of a trade? When was the last time we improved our team for the long term with a FA signing? When I look at the trades the Wings have made over the past 5 years or so, I am pretty unimpressed personally. Sure there are some decent value trades by moving down spots in the draft for adding extra picks, but thats about it. Regarding FA signings, he has a couple big splashes like Hossa and Alfredsson, but both of those appear to be oen and done situations that didn't necessarily help the team in the long run. Even take a guy like Weiss. He was a quality signing at the time, but was merely replacing someone that had been lost in Filppula. Bigger picture, I feel this team has been managed poorly recently. We have still had success, but mostly due to the fact that we had some generational talent on our roster. Much of which wasn't a direct result of Holland, so its kind of hard to keep giving him credit. Regarding Quincey, I personally feel its silly to focus on the trade. At the time it was a solid move. We didn't know Quincey would regress with the Wings. I just don't feel tha the is part of our future and that if he is resigned, especially if its more than 1 year, he will be an achor on the blue line similar to how Cleary/Sammy currently are on the forwards. The Wings have a lot of potential in their young dmen. The only way to see if they are legit is to let them play. Having Quincey around will only hamper that. Especially when he is bringing so little to the table. And for those that say it doesn't matter, Holland would never re-sign him, thats all I heard 4 months ago about the forwards and look where that is. Its been 2 or 3 years now where everyone says Tatar and Nyquist will definitely be on the roster. Yet here we are over a quarter of the way through the season and Nyquist has 1 game and Tatar has 15. Yet Cleary has 22 and Sammy 15??? My point is, Quincey signing a multiyear deal is a very likely scenario given the wings past few seasons. And that makes me sick to my stomach.
  17. dobbles

    Quincey

    a lot of people have fears based on what we have seen with the forwards. its been several seasons now of nyquist and tatar knocking on the door and several seasons of fans talking about which veterans are going to have expiring contracts so we can make room for the kids. yet guys like bert, sammy, and cleary are still on this team logging prime minutes while the kids have not been given legitimate shots to show what they offer. so fans fearing that quincey could stay around with a terrible contract are very legitimate IMO. i think bringing quincey back was a good move when it was made. i also think that quincey has underperformed terribly since coming back and would be a liability going forward. thankfully in teh time since quincey was acquired, ericsson has improved greatly and we added DD who has shown nothing but great things. i think at the time of acquisition, the team was looking at the future without lidstrom and stuart and had no idea what they would have and needed quincey to fill a top 4 spot. i hope that the D continues to improve and show that quincey is not going to be needed going forward and that we can instead look to our youth.
  18. dobbles

    Nyquist Getting the call

    you list 5 people, but tatar is regularly scratched and lashoff is the 7th defenseman. so that narrows it down to 3. and smith took like 5 years to even get here. if you look at that draft in 07 that smith and andersson come from, you will see that there are 45 players from that draft with more games played. so its not like these are players coming to the nhl before their peers or anything. same with tatar. 42 players from his draft with more nhl games played. we did finally get forced to get younger on defense last year. but even then its not like we are rolling a bunch of 20 year olds out there. sure we are less old than teams of years past. but that doesn't really mean we are young either.
  19. dobbles

    Respect Babcock and Holland

    i'm done respecting them until they earn it. especially holland. every year we hear about how things are going to turn around. every year on here we talk about our great prospect depth an how all of these top tier free agents will be available. and then every year nothing happens... we are not getting better. and it might even be a few years before we are because so many player have had their development nerfed. it does no good to have a prospect pool of nyquist, tatar, jurco, etc if none of them play. for several years we heard that the team was saving cap space for deadline moves or for the future. yet here we are with no cap space and a totally mediocre team. our superstars are gone or aging. unless we actually give youth a chance, then how will we see if we have that next generation of star in our organization?
  20. dobbles

    Babcock performance thread

    I see a lot of people trying to put the blame more on Holland for the lack of youth, but consider this: Babcock is not embracing the youth movement anyways. Babcock is the one that sets the lines each night and has scratched Tatar most of the season. To me there is a lot of blame to go around. Many counter and say 'we almost beat the Hawks last year and we are still in X place this year', but I call BS on that sort of attitude. The wings still have 2 of the best forwards in the game, and we cant even surround them with enough talent to get out of the bottom third of the league in scoring? I have high expectations for this team still and not because the Red Wings make the playoffs every year or because Detroit fans are spoiled, its because I still believe that enough pieces are there that we should be competing for the cup each year. And I do fully believe that in the last 5 years, Holland has made more bad moves than good which has contributed to these problems. And I feel we are getting close to the point where even a coach as great as Mike Babcock might be doing more harm than good.
  21. dobbles

    Tootoo Waived

    i honestly don't think that assessment can be made. there was never much time to tell. before getting injured, the year mursak finally got games, he was on a line with holmstrom and emmerton at even strength. no one was going to put up tons of points in that role. as it stands right now, tatar and nyquist fall into the exact same category. neither of them can stick in the lineup. so i guess we'll stick with the samuelssons, clearys, bertuzzis, maltbys, etc until they are well past serviceable because we are too afraid to take a chance. we see all the time players that are not given a shot by a team and go on to be very successful in other places. our organization has had success with that very concept in the past. dan cleary gave us many good years of hockey. but yet if you asked blackhawk fans 10 years ago about dan cleary, you would have gotten the same response as you just gave about mursak or ritola.
  22. dobbles

    Tootoo Waived

    thanks for answering with a bunch of hyperbole. it always helps advance a conversation along! /sarcasm the red wings have openly stated they want to keep their prospects in the minors for a long time. i'm pretty sure when an organization goes on the record saying something like that, there's not much reason to try and say it isn't the case. this is not about cleary versus nyquist or something so simple. this is about a pattern over several years where the wings will have young player that they never give a chance to. they stash them in the ahl for years and then give them limited chances to prove themselves often not putting them in a chance to succeed. heck, you mention quincey. he's a great example showing how long this has been going on. he was always sheltered in detroit and had to go to other teams to prove he could make it in the nhl. (however his second stint here is really making me question that!) but had he stayed in detroit, he most likely would have never got those minutes because we were too busy keeping a 58 year old chris chelios on the roster. additionally we had guys like ritola and mursak that showed great potential, but were only given limited 4th line minutes before moving on. sure you can say neither of them made it in the nhl anywhere else, but that's not the point. the point is that the team needs to give younger players a legitimate shot at proving themselves. it worries me that guys like tatar and nyquist will suffer the same fate as guys like ritola and mursak. guys that had promise but never helped the team. and yes there are a number of younger players on the team now. unfortunately, it seems to always take a rash of injuries to make that happen. i know we are a top level team and don't have slots for youth, but it was frustrating to see the blackhawks last year manage to fit in saad and shaw into their very high quality lineup and allow them to excel. you look at a guy like shaw who as a 5th rounder but has the 5th most games played by anyone in his draft class right now. for forwards, there have not been any players under 25 given chances to play in the top 6 in the last several years. we have been a bit open to trying the european guys like leino and brunner and giving them minutes, but i just don't see much opportunity for our young players. on defense the last 12 months have been nice. it was good to see that holland gave younger players a chance after we lost all the veterans. i am hoping that attitude continues. long story short, i am trying to have a genuine conversation and make legitimate points. i would appreciate less mocking in peoples responses.
  23. dobbles

    Tootoo Waived

    i think you are overvaluing hollands role in the points you mention above. aside from using the cap circumvention tricks that many used for several years to keep cap hits down, there aren't really any red wings who have signed well below market value to stay. i do not believe that holland has helped keep costs down. hossa and alfredsson came here to play with top quality players and in hossascase to win a cup. in 3 or 4 years when 13 and 40 have retired, who will wnat to come play here with the top talent we dont have? regardless, this point speaks to the talent we already have not hollands ability to attract free agents. both player fell into his lap, that doesnt exactly scream 'highly skilled gm' by getting them signed. DD is another bad example because there was nothing holland could do to woo him. all teams were able to offer the same max entry contract. there was nothing creative or mind blowing that holland needed to do to make the deal happen. at the end of the day DD is from michigan and went to college in michigan, it once again is not a signing that should be a feather in a gms cap. brunner i guess is a decent example of a nice signing. however, what is the point when they let him go a year later for nothing in return? my point in all of this is that overall KH has had more misses than hits in recent years. i believe that he and babcocks resistance to youth is about to hamstring this team for years to come. i am really excited about so many prospects in this organization, but when they never are put n a position to succeed, then it doesnt matter how deep the prospect pool is... i am not saying KH is a moron or should be fired tomorrow. i just worry that he is leading the team in the wrong direction. i also feel like his reputation is overblown and thats how he gets by so easily.
  24. i agree with most that say the helmet thing wasnt a big deal and was funny. the beer dumping was pretty trashy and fits chicagos reputation perfectly. philly may have the market cornered on the most hardcore mean fans, but chicago has shown pretty well in all sports it has the most douchey fans. (though vancouver seems to try hard for that crown. just think if they had more sports teams in that city)
  25. dobbles

    stephen weiss

    while i agree with you in that i dont want him on the team and i dont think his level of play is adequate to be on the team, they talked about at the signing that cleary took less money this year because the team had cap issues and expected a long term deal to get worked out after that. and since this team is loyal to a fault, i don't see them going back on that. i wouldnt be surprised to see a multiyear deal signed to keep him here for a couple more years. (it will however make me throw up in my mouth a little bit)