dobbles

I disagree just because back when he was here, he was nowhere near as big of a douchebag as he is now. while that causes a bit of regret, i dont harbor the same will as someone that already was a total ****** that we decided to bring in. personally, i think its easy to go for guys like hatcher and krupp. mostly because of how little they both played when they got here. thats why i think its so easy for folks to get past guys like hull or chelios; even though they were far less liked by our fans, their contributions while they were here eased that pain. for my pick, i will go with lang. while he did score over 100 points in his 2 full seasons, i didnt like his compete level and i also still cry knowing that the caps got fleishmann and green out of the deal. they would have been way better assets to have than langs 2 seasons.

what gurus would that be? i have never once heard anyone say the skill level of the swiss league is ahead of the ahl.

the ahl has limits on the number of vets each team can have. so its not as if we could send the entire roster. obviously the young guys could play there like smith and nyquist, but not everyone could go even if we wanted to. we also have to remember most of the euro leagues have caps on the number of foreign players, so those slots might go pretty fast too. also, for the guy asking earlier, the ahl has an agreement with the phpa. the phpa represents the players in the ahl, echl, and chl. they're currently having no labor issues.

yeah, i think thats the most important part. the wings could use him, but dont need him near as bad as the flyers do. and since the flames dont have to move him, they can hold out for the best deal.

i do totally agree with your opinion about the double speak fans do. but you have to remember that the flames fans do the same about bouwmeester. he is highly unpopular there. for the record though, i think kindl still has growth and can be a solid nhl guy. i personally think he looked good for a good portion of last year. i do think we have seen all cory emmerton has to offer. but i think having holmstrom on his line really hurt. i think he could appear better with a better combination of wingers.

you know the worst part? that definition was just for the standard corsi calculation. i am still waiting for the full explanation of that modified one. i want to know how and why it takes a teams record into consideration. i can only imagine thats how those bruins got on the list.

do we even know how that stat is calculated? boston has 4 guys on there and they had the best goal differential in hockey. not sure this stat means much. this part made me wonder: "This is exaggerated by the team adjustment which holds players on stronger teams to higher standards than weak teams." with that said, that 4th line was terrible this year and deserve to be at the bottom on any list. holmstrom was terrible even strength and it was like being on the penalty kill with 5 guys. i kind of find it funny that the raw list here http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/psh/comments/worst_20_raw_corsi_ratings2/ has no players from this list. and only calgary seems to have players on both lists.

i still dont understand how the owners can cry so much about a deal that they came up with. they won the last labor dispute and now all of a sudden its the worst situation ever? to me the owners are 100% to blame. they were the ones that created the current agreement and they are the ones that let their gms continue to hand out these giant contracts. i think the players can certainly give up a few percentage points of the revenue, but anything more than that is just the owners trying to grab leverage.

there must really be some legs to what savage reported as tsn took is and ran with it. even put it on their front page.

three things i think are important to remember: philly is most likely very desperate for a defenseman and could be driving the price up making any deal harder to swallow. the flames don't have to trade bouwmeester. sure they might have some problems if the cap goes down, but they could keep bouwmeester all season and be just fine. it seems like a lot of our fans think that calgary needs to do a salary dump and we are doing them a favor and can just give them scraps back. the flames have always been weak at center. that would mean filppula would have to be the prime piece they are looking to get back. i believe they even plan on trying cammalleri at center since they dont have any top 6 centers to speak of. i think we should keep that in mind as we throw around proposals as i think they would have little use for guys like franzen, cleary, mursak, etc.

what does that matter? you're setting up a straw man argument. it wasn't as if holland had to choose between the two. we have enough cap space we could have offered suter 10. the reason we didnt is because they made their top offer that they felt was fair and wouldnt handcuff them with the cap in the future. it unfortunately wasn't enough. maybe in a non-cap world we would have buckled and given suter as much as he wanted. heck maybe then we would have thrown just as much at parise and got him too. bottom line is its not guys like tootoo and bertuzzi that caused us to lose out on suter edit: also, one thing i have brought up a few times while talking about bouwmeester is that he was the most coveted FA of his class 3 years ago. and look where his stock is now. in 3 years, we may be patting ourselves on the back that we aren't saddled with a bad contract for someone that ended up under-performing. i think suter will look a lot different in minnesota without weber and rinne...

i think the flames could handle not getting a dman back if they got a top end forward. unfortunately the wings cant afford to send one of those anyways. and i dont think calgary would really be interested in forward prospects, even a guy thats close like nyquist. they have continually shown they aren't willing to rebuild, so i think they want some sort of roster ready guy back. they have always been weak up the middle so i would have to think they would want something like filppula straight up. personally i dont think anyone is interested in that from our end. though i wonder if they would be interested in ericsson + picks/prospects? they at least would get them an nhl guy back. if they plan on wideman/giordano as their top pair, ericsson could slot in on the 2nd or 3rd pair. in that situation, i think calgary could stomach supplementing with prospects and picks. and for us, since they are getting a roster player, the additional assets might not have to be so top end. what do you guys think about ericsson going? i know some already think ericsson is better than bouwmeester, but maybe you rational guys can keep the discussion going! (personally, i think it would be about the best deal to make both teams happy, but not sure if i would like it. we would have a tough time on the pk without stuart and ericsson.)

once again changing the point! now its about what team i am a fan of!!! just so you know, thats a quad cities flames logo, a now defunct ahl team that i happened to be a season ticket holder for because i lived in illinois. thats actually one of the only reasons i have a strong opinion about bouwmeester because calgary is a team i had an interest in previously. i was never a fan per say, but i followed guys like eric nystrom, brandon prust, dustin boyd, adam pardy, and warren peters as they worked their way into the league. its also a reason i have strong opinions on guys like ericsson, howard, quincey, leino, helm, abdelkader, etc. because i got to see them live from the front row 8-10 times a year for 2 seasons. not that it matters, but i have been a fan of the wings since learning about hockey in the early 90's. (the last couple years of the norris division) and peca is a blowhard. i value him as an analyst as much as i value eklund for personnel moves... sure he played the game so he has some credibility, but he comes off more like a guy thats butt-hurt than anything else. its no secret that bouwmeester isnt physical. but neither was lidstrom. and while he certainly isnt as skilled as nick was, he would be a pretty decent fill in. and as i have stated before, he is probably the only one close to being available as a top pairing guy. and i doubt the flames would have made the playoffs either way. its not like phaneuf has exactly been a success in toronto either. thankfully for the leafs, they only gave up spare parts for dion, or else i am sure he would be resented just as much as bouwmeester is in calgary.

i dont think its a coincidence you had to totally change the point... its just luck. the reason the panthers didnt deal him at the deadline the year he left was because they were so close to making the playoffs. for several years they have been one of those young up and coming teams. but it really was tallon bringing in the variety of free agents the last year or two that allowed them to develop. so its not as if he was holding them back from making it while he was there. as i stated before, his numbers there were top notch in the 4 years after the lockout. conversely, calgary has been a team on the decline since their cup run in 04. they have never really been a legit contender and havent won a playoff series since the lockout regardless of whether they had bouwmeester. i still readily admit that bouwmeester has been disappointing for them, but to imply its his fault the flames missed the playoffs and the panthers made it, well thats as silly as suggested jakub kindl is as good as jay bouwmeester... keep going though, your absurdities are fun to read! i can't wait to see what your next totally unrelated counter point will be!

i am not so much worried about exact lines, but i hope nyquist and brunner get legit shots at top 6 time. i think the biggest problem the wings have had is never knowing what their young guys can offer. its one thing to get them ripe, but its another to only give them limited chances and then move on without ever letting a guy get a true shot. sure, players have to earn their shots, but you cant stick a guy on the 4th line for a week and a half and then send him down because he didnt score 8 goals... the problem i see though is that if we are to give nyquist and/or brunner a top 6 shot, then all of a sudden, the bottom 6 gets really crowded. that means, sammy, cleary, tootoo and bertuzzi are eating up the 4 bottom 6 winger slots. assuming helm and abdelkader are the bottom 2 centers, that leaves miller, eaves, mursak, and emmerton fighting just for the extra slots. i worry that because of that fight for roster spots, nyquist or brunner will get sent down because they have options. then most likely emmerton and/or mursak are the odd guys out. yet a guy like mursak still never really got a shot. when he played last year it was mostly with emmerton and holmstrom and that line wasnt going to succeed regardless of how good or bad jan played. so once again, he is an unknown that will be entirely evaluated on preseason games. i hate that we will most likely move on from the guy without ever really giving him a good look. yet another complication is eaves. if he is healthy for the season then he definitely earns a roster spot and debatably (yes i made that word up) still deserves a bottom 6 position. if he still has problems then obviously that opens up 1 slot.

wow, i really shouldnt even respond to this as it is just ridiculous to imply that jonathon ericsson is better than jay bouwmeester... and kindl MIGHT be? i love kindl and hope he takes a huge step, but all he is right now is a first round dud with 17 career points. i am all about differing opinions. if someone wants to make an argument for white or quincey thats one thing. but jakub kindl? either you have very little grasp of hockey or are just trolling. either way, it serves no purpose to the discussion. but i did want to clarify the plus/minus thing. in my first post, i noted that this past season it was terrible, and when i said it was decent i was talking about since the lockout. just about all the numbers i gave was since the lockout which i believe is representative of his game. in those 7 years, he is a combined -10. thats not too bad considering the teams he played on.

sure he is overpaid. sure he has not lived up to the hype in calgary. but answer me these: what defenders on our roster are better than bouwmeester? what other top pairing defenders are realistically available? to me the answers to those question are kronwall and probably no one. bouwmeester to me is a top pairing guy. sure everyone likes to complain that all he does is eat minutes. but when he is on the ice, so is the opponents top line. aside from this past year, he has had a decent plus minus, which means when he is on against those top lines, its an even matchup. to me thats saying something considering the bad teams he has played on. and while calgary is a quasi contender, do you have any idea who he has played with? this past year it was chris butler. i would imagine most have never really heard of him. he played a year with regehr who is at least decent, and his first year in calgary was with giordano who at the time was a nobody. it was the good year they had together that catapulted him into top 4 status. and if you really think what happened in florida is irrelevant, this conversation has zero value. those years provide context into what he is capable of. and if you can't recognize that, you have no interest in hearing anyones opinion but your own. everyone loves to talk about how players benefited over the years from playing with lidstrom; that fact gave context to the numbers players put up. its the same situation here. bottom line is that jay bouwmeester has spent the last 7 years playing top pairing minutes, usually putting up top end offensive numbers, and playing well enough defensively that he has had solid plus/minus numbers when he is normally without top quality linemates.

im sorry but you are just wrong. in the first 4 seasons after the lockout with florida, he was 23rd, 24th, 24th, and 21st in defenseman scoring. consistently being in the top 25 in the league in scoring is NOT below average. sure he has had lower totals with calgary, but who doesnt? just for transparencies sake, he dropped to 55, 69, and 45 with them. in his 7 seasons since the lockout, he was in the top 6 in scoring for his team 5 of those years. another year he was 8th. the only year he wasnt one of his teams top scorers was 10-11. i am not saying he will be our savior, replace lidstrom, or even get traded. but people are undervaluing him. 3 summers ago he was the ryan suter of his free agent class before calgary dealt for his rights just before july 1st.

this isnt nhl12 on playstation. teams dont just trade away young potential stud defensemen for spare parts. its impossible to take you seriously when you always propose these absurd trades.

if we can't land a top pairing guy, i think we just go with what we have. only sign a veteran if he is there to be #7. i think we need to give our guys a chance to step up. we need to give them more than a few preseason games. we need to give smith and kindl their chance to play every game. we need to give ericsson the chance to play top 4 and earn his contract. if we go signing a veteran guy, all it will do is cause us to second guess every time a young guy makes a mistake. to me, thats the exact mistake we made with quincey. we only gave him these short little windows to perform. once he went to LA, he showed that if got minutes, he could play. while we certainly cant just give guys minutes because we want them to succeed, we also have to give them fair chances. i dont feel we've done that in that past because of our love for bringing in veterans. its time to find our next generation of players. sink or swim; s*** or get off the pot. then if half the season goes by and someone isnt living up to expectations, thats when we bring someone in. but give them a decent chance not just training camp.

i find a bit of a dichotomy in all the discussions about defense. to me, the worry that a lot of fans have goes like this: "our defense has been fairly bad the last few years and now we've lost half our top 6 in the last 2 offseasons. so this year we will totally be screwed!" but here is what i think we need to consider: maybe the people we lost were the problem. maybe they were the weaker links defensively? and yes, i am even including lidstrom in that. because with all due respect to him, in his own end he had dropped off the last couple years. he was amazing on the PP the last few years and those great numbers helped mask the slide in his own end IMO. if you think back to the super embarrassing goal in game 4 against the preds where 3 guys chased the puck into the corner and left 2 guys wide open in front of the net, it was nick that left his man to chase; thats something you would have never seen from nick in his prime. please note i am not trying to pick on him specifically, but i know that if i accuse nick of poor play without providing an example, that i will get totally shelled. i will probably get totally shelled anyway. but my point is this: we lost rafalski, stuart, and lidstrom. out of those 3, the only one i would say was effective in his own end before leaving was nick. rafalski was never a defensive specialist and was replaced by white. to me thats probably an upgrade in our own end. stuart really lacked any drive the last 1-2 years, so i honestly think quincey can replace him rather aptly assuming he gets his head out of his ass this coming season. so that just leaves nick. he is a player that could never be replaced, so that will just be through other players stepping up. kronwall has to continue to make strides as a top pairing guy. ericsson has to finally earn his contract and become a top 4 guy. smith has to come in and prove he is an nhl'er and show that he will be top 4 in the future. and kindl has to prove he can play every day in the nhl and contribute. thats how you replace nick. but as i said, i think in our own end it might not be as hard as i think nick excelled so much in the offensive aspects in his last few years. i would have loved to get suter. it would have allowed guys to slot in a lot better. but maybe the changes we have made will end up for the better? maybe its time we finally put young guys in a position to succeed in a make or break type situation. at least if a guy like kindl fails we can finally know.

regardless of his statistics last season, bouwmeester has spent 5+ years as a top pairing defenseman. why would calgary trade him for a defensemen with 17 career points, a forward with 4 career points, and a 1st round pick that most likely wont be in the top half of the round? dont get me wrong, as a wings fan i love kindl and mursak and have been optimistic about them for years. but kindl was a first round pick 7 years ago. he doesnt exactly hold much weight as a 'prospect.' kindl was very underwhelming in grand rapids including a -34 season. while i know thats often an overused stat, the reason i find it important is that he was by far the worst on the team. he put up only decent offensive numbers in grand rapids. he showed little in his first half season with the wings. i do feel he had a good year this year with 13 points and looked good in games, but not enough to warrant being sought after in a trade for a top pairing guy. for mursak, he put up 86 points in 184 games in grand rapids. once again, not that great. he has 4 points in 44 nhl games. how are either of those guys assets that calgary would want back? they might as well trade him for picks only or for guys that are young enough to still turn out better. mursak is 24 and kindl is 25. not really prime candidates to be prospects.

there is a zero percent chance that bouwmeester is traded for scraps like kindl, mursak, and a first... feaster is a pretty bad gm, but not that bad.

i guess i can understand the ranking dropping if you take out smith and nyquist. they were indeed 2 of our best prospects. its not to say our cupboard is bare, but we have to remember that all teams have guys they are excited about. and unfortunately, outside of lottery players, you cant get truly excited about a player till he is at least in the ahl and playing well. fans too often cite numbers from juniors as some garuntee players will make it.

i disagree. he has been playing the minutes of a top pairing guy for half a decade... and in florida, he was able to do it as a 1/2 ppg player and as a plus player post lockout. in calgary his numbers were down, but last year he still let the team in TOI. if you aren't a top pairing guy, you aren't on the ice that much. i do agree he doesnt play with an edge. but the reason we need a defenseman is that we just lost a guy who was the definition of not playing with an edge. to me, thats why bouwmeester would be a decent fit. he plays that same style as lidstrom did. obviously no one does is as good as number 5 did, but why try to plug a round hole with a square peg? at least this way its a round peg, just not as bad ass of one! not sure who you talk to, but he is pretty much universally hated on calgarypuck... they have been figuring out ways to trade him all summer...