Datsyerberger

I think a lot of you are forgetting he's still coming off a serious knee injury which can take a year or more to fully recover from. He's not going to do any better getting into form sitting on the bench all season, and he can't be sent down to GR without getting waived.. and someone WILL pick him up. Edit: Likely by some crapass team like Atlanta where he'd get 3rd or sometimes even 2nd line minutes and PK, possibly PP time, where he then puts up a 30 point season worthy amount of production for the remainder season, and everyone here gets yet another reminder that even the "spare" players on the Wings roster are quality players elsewhere. 3 months later, threads emerge about how stupid the Wings were to let him go instead of (insert current scapegoat).

I think they're a lot closer in that regard than some people here think. Huddles is without a doubt a better goalscorer, though. Flip's finishing needs some work.

But, if you examine the graph above, you will see that's a rapid decline in points per minute, which is the best asset for guaging icetime efficiency (when it comes to point totals). The lack of lower minute data on Flip is a bit limiting, but there are samples out there. Hudler PPG 67 pts, 13.5 minutes: 0.82 73 pts, 16 minutes: 0.89 Filppula PPG 35 pts, 13.5 minutes: 0.43 41 pts, 16 minutes: 0.50 Identical PPG differential, and the PPG ratio between their 16 minute PPG numbers and their 13.5 minute numbers decreases, showing either decreased production rate for Hudler, increased production rate for Flip, or both. Of course, this entire discussion is pointless if there isn't an understanding that there's a difference between production totals and rate of production (not directed at you, egroen). Edit: If we're only going to include recent instances in which Hudler produced at the exclusion of times earlier that he didn't, then it would be just as relevant to only include the recent times that Flip has played with Hossa for purposes of determining his PPG and comparing the differential between the two.

Do you pay attention to what you post? An abundance of rolly-eyes doesn't make you appear any more intelligent. I suppose Holmstrom's groin strains, knee injures and back spasms come from him just skating in a slow, straight line and then standing somewhere. Fact is, whenever Holmstrom's in the offensive zone he almost always has a particular d-man (if not two as a couple teams do) targeting just him and he takes a lot of abuse, whereas Datsyuk and Zetterberg are generally covered with zonal or positional coverage. You should know better than that. That comment takes you in about a 180 of the point you were trying to prove.

Here's a visual thing for the not so math inclined among you: As you can see, increased production over increased icetime does not necessarily equate to increased performance. It can actually be indicative of decreased performance, depending on what happens to the -rate- of production. Note: Graphs not 100% accurate or even particularly well drawn

No, because then he's going to be going up against better opposition.. a situation in which Hudler does not thrive as much.

Yea, that's where I'm at.. but I've already got a long winded post detailing that. I found it interesting that YG actually worked against his own point by showing a significant decline in PPM as Hudler gains increased ice time. He showed that with a 2 and a half minute differential, Hudler loses 6 points to his total, but his PPM also significantly increases. On the other hand, if you were to scratch 2 and a half minutes off of Datsyuk's or Zetterberg's current average icetime, his point totals would also fall, but it probably wouldn't result in as significant of a PPM increase (and that's not even counting into discussion the defensive presence the team would lose those 2 and a half minutes). The undertone in all of this is that some people here think that a player like Cleary or Flip, since they aren't producing as many points (but providing great defense) should be reduced 2 or so minutes in ice time, and that ice time should be given to Hudler. Interestingly enough, when Dats and Z were on seperate lines, you didn't see anyone arguing that Z, who is producing less than Dats, should be dropped 2 minutes in ice time so Dats could put up a handful of extra points. It just doesn't work like that.

She'll do well here, this one!

Indeed. But then you look at his giveaways and see what his GA:TA ratio is, and realize that the Force is strong with him, but he is not a Datsyuk yet. (Also, in before the "he gets more icetime")

To offer a bit of an example here.. well, I'm gonna use Leino, 'cause everyone here likes Leino. Won't set anyone off. Suppose, over the course of an 82 game season, Hudler is playing 16 minutes a game for 73 points over 82 games. Meanwhile, Leino is producing (just making s*** up for an example here) 50 points over 82 games with 10 minutes of icetime per game. Now, Babcock, seeing Leino's potential, lower's Hudler's icetime to 13.5 minutes, and he's still producing at a 67 point pace. However, Leino, now with the extra 2 and a half minutes Hudler had, at 12.5 himself, is now putting up at a 58 point pace over 82 games. Due to several factors, including endurance and line matching, this is more efficient production, (a +3 point difference) even though Hudler's totals drop off. The 58 in 12.5 ATOI is actually a slower rate than the 50 per 10 in which he was scoring, but it's not as much of a drop off as the 67 to 13.5 and 73 to 16 in Hudler's case. It's a matter of finding a peak in a curve. Why would a player's production start to peak and then drop off (in efficiency) like that? Maybe the best endurance he has at a high amount of energy is 13.5 minutes. Maybe he starts having to play more against lines in which he matches up unfavorably with opposing players, like Hudler against large, physical players.. the sort of player another type (like Datsyuk) makes look like fools. There's any number of factors, all of which I'm sure successful coaches like Babs take into consideration.

I'm going to go against the grain a little here and say yes, to an extent. It's not that his production would falter.. it's that it becomes less efficient. To use YG's numbers in the previous thread, it's easy to realize that 67 points gained over an average of 13.5 ATOI is more efficient production than 73 to 16. As someone here pointed out, that's probably due to the fact that with thse higher minutes, he's playing more against top lines.. at which point it may be that those extra 2-3 minutes are better off distributed to other players (that is, at their best possible A/TOI:points efficacy). I'd say 13.5 is just about right for Hudler.. allows the Wings to save his energy for the times in the game when their opponents shorts are down for a midget boot in the ass.

To be fair, this is probably the first one in a month that had something new to contribute.

Don't know why anyone. There's not a goalie on the market that would be a significant ugprade over Ozzie whom we could realistically afford, cap-wise, without chopping up our future.

Strangely enough, those stats actually make a good argument for Flip being our #4 or #5 forward. Main thing he needs to improve is his physicality. One note: * One category Flip cracks the top three among Red Wings forwards is in total Penalty minutes - he has 32 PIM on the year. The only forwards with more PIM then Flip are Hossa (40) and Samuelsson (36). -- Forwards who have had more ice time this season than Flip: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Cleary (could be wrong about Cleary). Oh noes, he takes more penalties than Datsyuk with high ice time. Gee, only the rest of the league does. His PIM:ice time ratio is pretty close to Hossa's. On another note, this shows that Cleary is very good at resisting penalties despite doing a lot of the tough work.

Doesn't matter where he goes, he's not gonna play with Gaborik for obvious reasons.. heh.

Which will probably continue to adjust upwards slightly now that it looks like he'll be centering the 2nd line (read: any two of Hudler, Franzen, and Hossa) for the rest of the year.

Ah, another member of the "Lidstrom made a mistake or two this year and isn't putting up quite as many points, so he's only 50th or so among d-men now" club. That said, yes, Lilja is a very valuable PKer and I'd keep him over Lebda any day.

I'm going to disagree with you here, and argue a particular point.. that point being that Hudler's performance would actually decrease with more minutes. Mind you, it would still be good, but not as it is now. At it is, if you watch the games, he's being put on the ice a lot during PPs and other situations (such as uneven line matches) where his special offensive talents can really shine. The bulk of his energy is thus saved particularly for these moments. That's not say that he would be unspectacular with a greater role, but I think that what Babcock is doing with him there is probably better for his development (and the team's success). Flip has shown both the ability to play high ES minutes and produce with high ES minutes. His defensive game is undoubtedly fourth among our forwards. He could rack up more points if Babs played him more on the PP, but there's no need to when we have such wealth of talent. His high overall skill is saved for the large amount of ES time in which his balanced skillset excels, over that of Hudler's, in my opinion. As for Franzen.. consider he's in his prime and these other two are a few years behind him, and note that they're doing many of the things he does already. I think he's the only one I could really put as the 4th best forward besides Flip. But anyhow, we're all ultimately pissing in the wind, here. I'll trust Babcock's decisions and judgement, as his record does not give me any particular reason to do otherwise. Edit: Besides this clever little edit, I'm going to ignore the last page or so of posts, as most of it is just the usual handful of downers who think 1: points are the end all be all and 2: points will rise with ice time no matter the situation.

Not usually one for quoting myself, but I'd like to see some replies to this. I think a lot of you are overlooking the fact that if he had just 2 more minutes of PP time a game (about 2 shifts worth), he'd be getting about the same amount of ice time as Marian Hossa, tying him for 3rd among forwards. That also means that the players he'd be replacing on those shifts would be playing less. When you factor in something fantasy hockey tends to overlook, endurance, it becomes obvious that it's much more efficient to play those other players on the PP, even if he's just as offensively talented.. because he's more useful than they are in other, more strenuous situations.

The majority of responses in this thread, so far, are a good measuring stick for how underrated Flip is on these boards. Flip is clearly our 6th/7th best forward, which is obviously why he's 3rd in ES time for forwards. Clearly Babcock and crew thinks he sucks so much that he should play him more minutes in the most important play time in hockey than all those other obviously better players. Did it ever occur to some of you that he doesn't get as much PP time because there are 9 PP-worthy forwards on this team? And that they're chosen ahead of him not because of overall offensive talent, but because he's the better option than most of them on the PK and at ES, and that his endurance is best saved for those crucial minutes? Maybe, even though he doesn't have higher points/min at ES than some of those players, he's played more at ES because his production is more CONSISTENT at that amount of ice time? Or Babcock, the most successful current coach in the NHL, is just a ******* idiot.

Franzen and Hudler are excellent players, but saying they're better than Flip (or rather, that Flip will never be as good as them) while comparing Flip to Handzus pretty much makes Huddles and Franzen legitimate first liners, which they're probably not. We're seeing the best Franzen has to offer in his career, in all likelihood, and Hudler is always going to be in a battle with his own size. The fact is, we're looking at 3 forwards who could all be borderline 1st liners on some teams in the league. Franzen is the largest and most explosive of the 3, though his offense is somewhat streaky (his defensive play isn't, though). Hudler is the most outright talented, I think, and has killer vision.. but he's small, and that will always be a knock on him, even if he plays past it. Flip is the smoothest and most defensively skilled of the 3, and in my opinion has the ability to become the most overall gifted of the 3... and that's the sort of players the Wings org likes. His $3m/yr is already looking like a bargain, especially if you compare it to players of similar caliber who aren't on their entry level contracts (Jordan Staal, who gets similar minutes and a similar role, immediately comes to mind).

That one is sorta a no duh. Yours pretty much nails it. Best captain of all time (Yzerman) One of the top 5, arguably the best player of all time (Howe) Another one that makes a case for top 5, as well as a decent case for best d-man of all time (and certainly no worse than 3rd -- Lidstrom) And one of the top 5 goalies of all time. (Sawchuck)

Sammy is not a bad player by any stretch of the imagination, but at this point, he can get both better money and better playing time elsewhere. The miracle scenario: Hossa, Franzen, Hudler, keep Flip The it's not a miracle, it's just Kenny Holland scenario: Hossa, 1 of Franzen or Hudler, keep Flip The "we'll miss Hossa but these players don't suck by any stretch of the imagination" scenario: Franzen, Hudler, keep Flip, maaaybe keep Sammy The "Red Wings worst case still = the best 2nd line in the NHL" scenario keep Hossa, Flip, Sammy (Sammy goes 3rd line, Leino on 2nd)

Well, 4th best defensive forward, I put Z, Dats, and Hossa ahead of him. Not like being behind 3 Selke nominees is a bad thing. All in all, I don't think it's unrealistic to call him our 4th best forward, and if possible, I'm more and more wanting to see Hudler - Flip - Hossa kept over Franzen - Flip - Hudler + Sammy I really think the Wings org sees something special in his future. You know, I think I'd be willing to see both Hudler and Franzen let go to keep Hossa and Flip. 2nd line scorers are replaceable. Leino anyone? 2nd line 2 way centers and star wingers? Not so much. ZDH Leino - Flip - Hossa Cleary - Helm - Sammy Abkadoodle - Draper - Kopecky Maltby Raffi - Lids Kronwall - Stuart Lilja - Ericsson Meech/Cheli/Lebda (pick 2) is a better "worst case scenario" than most rosters in the NHL!