Datsyerberger

That's not entirely true. Zetterberg has consistently taken more faceoffs than Datsyuk per season while putting up a similar percentage (cue eva with numbers, go go go). Datsyuk is the one to take the faceoffs in those particular situations for 2 reasons: he's the team's best playmaking center, and he's unparalleled at stripping the puck in the offensive zone. Draper gets those situations because he's a demi-deity in the faceoff circle. Zetterberg is the superior player on the PK, which I see you didn't argue. The reason that clear english is important for the captain is because he frequently has to act as the spokesman and face of the franchise. Datsyuk's english is fine for bitching at the refs, and that's one of the primary functions of alternates: ***** at ref. You'll notice that Datsyuk does it more often than Lidstrom, and Lidstrom is our current captain (Lids has that great condescending head-shake, though. Has anyone else noticed that? It reminds me of this: http://ronpaulsaysno.ytmnd.com/ ) Lidstrom also speaks excellent English and is generally calm and cool--an aspect in which Z is very similar. I'm not going to argue over intangibles. They are largely a matter of opinion from the perspective of a fan like me who isn't in the locker room or on the bench, so I'll state my opinion that Z is superior in this regard. However, Datsyuk is hands down my favorite player of the two. Edit: It's worth noting that Datsyuk's current contract is one that was generally considered over-valued in a league where the cap was considerably lower than it is now. Compared to contracts for player of his caliber in the league now, he's severely underpaid. If Z takes the same money that Dats makes, I will worship the ground he stands on.

I've found both the Sharks' and the Bruins' streaks more respectable this year, but 8 in a row against any team in this league is nothing to scoff at.

I love Osgood, but Conklin is like the octopus of outdoor NHL hockey. When he retires, I'm hunting his ass down and chunking him onto the ice during the Winter Classics.

I'm hopeful. Homer is one of my favorites. But, I don't want to see him sacrifice his well-being into his 40s and beyond.. well, because he's one of my favorites. Just like I wouldn't want to see Yzerman play anymore on his knee.

While that's not entirely true, you could make a respectable argument that it is indeed becoming more and more so. Though I disagree with the majority of your points on Lidstrom in the rest of the post, this is actually an interesting argument worth looking at. Datsyuk, in my opinion, is one of the most offensively undervalued players in the league (even though he is quite well respected). The -only- person I'd currently put ahead of him as a playmaking passer is Big Joe, and Datsyuk is more valuable defensively (and very underrated physically, given his performance since the playoffs last season). I'm calling him dead even with Crosby, which I know I'll catch homer-hell for, but that's my personal gauging of performance with the opinion that the West is, in general, more defensively responsible than the East. Crosby is a frigging beastly strong skater (though not as agile as Dats), and a better goalscorer, though (though not by a whole lot). Feel free to rip me a new one on this without fear of reciprocation, because I'm not going to turn this into one of THOSE threads, just evaluating Datsyuk's skills--and I believe Thornton and Crosby to be the only 2 at or above his level.

Zetterberg is the clear-cut future captain and he's our top PK forward, while putting up PPGish points. Hossa is good, maybe even a bit better than Z on everything but defensive end (and only a slight but respectable edge to Z there), but he's not a captaincy candidate and he's going to require more money than Z in a situation that's already gonna be a cap pain in the ass. As for Lidstrom.. yes, he's a defensive defenseman, possibly the best in that aspect of all time. It just happens that he's a defensive defenseman that's also got world class offensive talent. Edit: It's also worth noting that Z is a center and Hossa is not, something that generally = extra value in today's league. He's also a quite above average face-off man

I'd love to think that. Realistically, though, with the amount of abuse that guy takes and some of the injuries that are starting to pop up more (like groin and back), you've gotta think he might be ready to retire or go low minutes by the end of his contract.

Sadly, I'm assuming Flip gets traded at the end of this season. Even losing Sammy, keeping Flip doesn't seem realistic if you want to sign Z, Franzen, and Hudler, and that's assuming Z only gets 7 and Franzen and Hudler only get 3 each (check the Franzen vs Hossa thread for some numbers). Flip is basically only a glorified PK specialist right now -- of which we have a plethora. Franzen and Hudler are seriously outproducing him.

Realistically, I would too. But I'm being moderately generous to everyone on the list, and assuming he gets a chance and does something decent with it (Atleast makes himself 1B worthy). I'm also assuming that McCollum does well enough to get into GR and develop, but not so well that he makes the Wings roster at 21/22. Not like I'd complain if he did..

Ultimately, this thread should be titled -Zetterberg- or Hossa. It will be very difficult to keep both AND preserve depth, and a Babcock coached Red Wings is all about depth. That said, keeping Z is a given. He's great, homebrewed talent, and by far our best option for future captain. Here's our alternate choices for captain: Draper: Long time Wing and alternate, doesn't have enough minutes to be captain, imo.. and he'll probably retire around the same time as Lidstrom. Datsyuk: *Insert bad call* Ref! Ref! Ahtrussmaheye tu doctor mamani! -- Seriously though, I think he's our 2nd best choice, but due to his English nervousness in public... Well, if we didn't have Z, he's who I'd take anyhow. That's really it. There's noone on the team that's earned the C above Datsyuk, besides Zetterberg. We COULD live without Z, but I don't see it happening. Now, a more interesting situation: Who are the As in a coupla years? Here's what I think (Assuming Lidstrom and Draper retire, and Z is C) Datsyuk Rafalski (he'll be our #1 D-man if we keep him) Kronwall or Franzen? Both consistent players that can speak good English. 3 As assumes rotation. On another note, can you imagine Homer as an Alternate? (Imagine Swedish Chef voice) *Insert bad call* "Ref! See da pooka? Pooka shoota off da pointa, deflecta Homer stick and in-a. Homer step-a in da creasa, out da creasa, in da creasa, out da creasa, out da crease ven pook deflecta. Reffa is bad call a-makin, Homer shoot da goal a-countin'... bork bork bork!" But anyhow, here is my very, very optimistic prediction for the roster next year, based on results thus far. This is assuming Z takes a pay cut for both his performance this year -and- because of the cap situation (let's say that the economy stabilizes a little and the cap doesn't move up or down). I'm also being optimistic with a couple contracts here.. since I'm a fan, and not a GM, I might as well be optimistic. These are also the lines I'd like to see, assuming everyone performs like we'd want them to. Datsyuk (6.7) - Zetterberg (7.0 -- I said very optimistic, dammit!) - Homer (2.25) Franzen (3.0) - Hudler (3.0) - Leino (.9) -- Yep, I'm being very optimistic with Franzen + Hudler. Edit: And with Leino. Kopecky (.6) - Helm (.6) - Cleary (2.85) -- Or Cleary on the 2nd line if Babs isn't ready for Leino on the 2nd. Maltby (.88) - Draper (1.58) - Meech (.5) -- Meech has shown himself to be a capable grinding forward. Possibly keep Kopecky on the 4th line and put him on the 3rd with Helm? That'd be fast. That got me thinking of a VERY fast alternate 3rd (plus alternate 4th) Helm - Draper - Meech. Zooooooooom! Maltby - Cleary - Kopecky -- I don't see Cleary being on the 4th as a permanent line, but you might see something like this happen after the end of a PK shift for Cleary, or if Cleary or one of the top 6 is injured (in which case Cleary gets moved up) Downey OR Mac (.5) -- Meech goes on D if more than 1 D-man is out or performing poorly, and the 'enforcer' becomes the 12th forward. I honestly think Holland is keeping Downey in the system 'til Mac retires, making sure Downey has atleast a two-way contract in the AHL, so he can play out as the Wings enforcer once our situation becomes less messy. I just have a gut feeling that the Wings don't intend on ditching him (Though usually when I have a gut feeling, it means a long day on the John) Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6) Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3) Lilja (1.2) - Big Rig! (.9?) -- Possible rotation of him and other defensive prospects, to see who does best in the big game. Lebda (.65) There's a possibility Cheli remains in the system. I mean, he is Cheli. If the Wings have kept him up 'til this point, and he wants to continue playing, there's a good chance he'll have a job. I may be in a minority here, but I personally believe that the leadership, defensive know-how, and loyalty he brings is worth a small hit, even if he only plays part of the time. Let's say (.6). That makes it a full 23 man roster. The Wings have the flexibility to play with a 22 man roster (with both Meech and Big Rig who can play forward) to avoid putting someone on LTIR if they take a minor injury -- and if its anyone on the 4th line/reserve besides Draper who takes a minor injury, they put them on LTIR and call up a prospect for some ice time. Ozzie (1.4) Howard (.75) -- This is assuming Howard plays well enough to get a chance, and that they decide Larsson could use another year of development. PP players: Z, Dats, Homer, Lidstrom, Raffy, Kronwall, Stuart? Big Rig? Leino? Hudler, Franzen, and maybe Cleary. That's a scary good selection. PK players: Z, Dats, Lidstrom, Kronwall, Stuart, Lilja, Cleary, Franzen, Draper, Maltby, Helm?, Cheli if he's on the roster. That's a pretty nice selection, too. Another Edit: Unless Filppula starts kicking ass, we don't lose much by trading him off for a pick. We have a plethora of PK and PP specialists, and a wealth of capable 2nd liners AND centers. He seems more and more and more to be the odd man out unless Hudler really starts to suck or Flip really owns. With Cheli, that's a 23 man roster. The price tag? 56.06 -- That's damned close. I think some of those .5 contracts are actually .45, and Big Rig's might be .85, so I'm not sure on that. By god, that might work! And it most certainly does if you keep the 23rd man in GR. Alternate chances for Helm, Ericsson, and any other worthy players to get ice time. Franzen & Hudler 3, Z 7? Git r done, Kenny! (We can hope)

I'd love to see Chelios in this, for many aforementioned reasons. Best American born player ever, outdoor game in his hometown, against the team he played for in his best years, on the team he's won two cups with.. yea. I'd also like to see Lebda play, despite the fact that Lilja has been consistently superior. Again, hometown boy. Also, IIRC, the Lebda + Chelios pairing has always done a bit better than Cheli + Lilja (due to Lilja and Cheli both being a bit.. slow). Also, Chicago 3rd defensive pairing? That's just epic. I don't see Lilja as a selfish individual. He seems like a stand-up guy for his teammates. Given those conditions with those 2 teammates of his, you've got to wonder if he'd be okay with being benched. I'm certain he'd love to play as well, but.. well, I dunno, that's all between him and Babs and what not. It'd be epicly awesome if he was down with that, though. If Lidstrom doesn't play, it's a given that all 3 will be in. I don't see Lidstrom missing this, however, unless he's physically unable to skate. Most importantly, I just want to see the Wings kick Chicago's ass. Again. Edit: If our defensive pairings our chosen based on performance (which I have no qualms with), I think it's Cheli + Lilja, without a doubt. I don't think our choice of Lebda vs Lilja for our 3rd pairing should be enough to lose a game for us, not if the entire team is playing decently. Lilja is a big PK asset, though, and when the Hawks PP is on fire... well, just thought I'd clear that up.

Just heard from the commentary on FSN The Knitting Lady passed away Christmas Eve. Rest in peace, good madame.

Fo' sho', my brethren.

Completely f***in' serious, it was a Winter Classic commercial I saw immediately after the game on TSN. I just went "Oooh.. *looks at the score again* Yep, shutout"

That was the conclusion I came to in my above reply to you as well, whether we keep Hossa or Franz + Hudler. Edit: Sammy gone also seems an almost certainity for fitting under the cap, with a core of: Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Lilja, Osgood, Hossa OR Hudler + Franzen, Cleary All you can really fit after that for a 22 or 23 man roster is players in the .5-.8 range, leaning towards the former. And that's without Filppula

No, I'm envisioning something more like this: Hudler (3.0) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Homer (2.25) Franzen (3.5) - Zetterberg (7.5) - Leino (.9) Helm (.6) - Filppula (3) - Cleary (2.85) Maltby (.88) - Draper (1.58) - Kopecky (.6) Downey OR Mac (.5) (Note: Probably not those actual forward lines, though I think they could work. Maybe ZDH and Franzen-Hudler-Leino? Well, I'm posting this to discuss lines anyhow, so pardon if they suck) Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6) Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3) Lilja (1.2) - Lebda (.65) Meech (.5) Ozzie (1.4) Howard (.75) -- Or Larsson? Though I think Howard will get a chance unless he absolutely stinks it up in GR. That's 58.51, which is still likely over, unless the economy goes apes*** in the next 6 months. That was also undercutting what I think Hudler and Franzen could land if their current performance still continues. Take out Hudler or Filppula and throw in another GR guy and you're looking at more like 56, which seems.. well, more reasonable. So, more and more, Hudler or Flip looks to be out of the picture, depending on a balance of A: Who lands more picks, and B: Who's more likely to earn their keep. Now, just for s***s and giggles, here's with Hossa Hossa (7.5) - Datsyuk (6.7) - Homer (2.25) Cleary (2.85) - Hank (7.5) - Leino (.9) Maltby (.88) - Helm (.6) - Kopecky (.6) Abdelkader? (.5?) - Draper (1.58) - Mac OR Downey (.5) Prospect of the day/week/month (.5?) Lidstrom (7.4) - Raffi (6) Stuart (3.75) - Kronwall (3) Lilja (1.2) - Lebda (.65) Meech (.5) Ozzie (1.4) Howard (.75) 57.51. Not entirely unreasonable, if you don't mind looking a bit like Ottawa with better defensive pairings. The good of this? Keep a big name player, get rid of a possible underperformer (Filppula -- though like I said, TONS of hockey left to play, and I like Flip, soooo, benefit of the doubt there..), bring up some of the young guns in GR that deserve a chance. The bad? Lots of question marks in the bottom 2 forward lines, and a 2nd line that could be either awesome (if Cleary plays like last season pre-injury, and if Leino lives up to expectations) or bust (if they.. uh, don't). As of -right now- I prefer the Hudler + Franzen option, because of greater scoring depth for minimally less defense, + homebrew, etc, but there's still tons of hockey left, and a very shaky economy. Performance + available cap is going to be very, very hard to predict.

Homer mic'd up? Is there anyone on this planet that would possibly be able to understand that? Hummahrrjamerkaablar... bork bork bork!

Well, Hudler IS going to get offer sheets if he's not signed. In that case, Wings get picks.. and with the way Hudler's been playing, potentially several good picks. So, in one way, you're looking at Hossa and a 1st rounder (maybe more?) vs Franzen and Hudler (and maybe Sammy as well, if those two go relatively cheap, though I expect he's gonna get a pay raise somewhere with the numbers he's had.) Another thing to look at, is, well, rare as guys like Franzen and Hudler are, big guns like Hossa come around even less often. And by keeping one big gun, you leave 1 extra roster space open. That can go one of two ways. Either you're already pushing the cap and you need to find extra cap space to fill that 1 roster spot, which works against keeping Hossa. Or you've enough extra cap room to wiggle around after signing Hossa, and then have an extra spot in which you can send up one of the young guns permanently (Helm, for example), an opportunity you might not have keeping both Hudler and Franzen. Ultimately, there's still over half a season of hockey to play, not to mention the playoffs. That's a lot of time to see where these players positions on the team are going to further develop. Performance, especially in the playoffs, and the willingness of each of the respective parties here to take a pay cut are all going to be deciding factors, and I don't think there's any clear cut solution at the moment. Nostalgia-wise, part of me wants to keep Franzen and Hudler because they're part of the 08 championship (also also quite fine players at the moment.) On the other hand, I also really like Hossa. Most importantly, though, I don't think we go wrong either way.. there will be some sadness at the loss of any of them, but a wealth of talent is one asskicking situation to be in (as opposed to, uh, whatever situation you call what some other teams are in)

Oooooh, no wonder. A commercial where a Hawk handles an octopus while saying "end some old traditions, start some new ones" Bad karma man, bad karma.

Thanks. How could I forget? On anothjer note, Lets Go Wings! (And TB vs MTL goes to the s***out..)

Hi. Apparently you're not familiar with our roster. We're the Detroit Dead Things, and we believe in enforcing with the power play. Except Lilja, who only unleashes his destructive fury on the truly worthy, generally demolishing them with one fell blow.

TB & MTL in OT

History in the making! We're watching the end of a dynasty!

Jumpin Jaheezus, Flip and Kopay

The Hawks have a pretty damned impressive cycle.