sureWhyNot

You are joking about Franzen fighting, or his willingness to fight under any circumstance, if his hand was healthy, correct? If so I will have to respectfully disagree. Franzen is an amazing player, a great power forward who plays a great two way game. However in regards to fighting, well I would say the chances of him -- willingly -- fighting anyone, let alone someone semi tough is about as likely as Piet Van Zant hoping the boards to get involved in a scrum. That said, this could all change. You see I think I figured out Franzen's problem when it comes to fighting -- He doesn't know that he is supposed to shed the gloves and actually hit the other guy back. Here, below I have included two pieces of video evidence I have spent hours analyzing: YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN! He obviously hasn't picked up on the fact that he is supposed to drop the mitts and actually hit the guy who is pummeling him back. As for your the notion that finding "Chris Neil" players are hard -- I am going to have to disagree with you again. Its not that it's hard, it's just that, well, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of their production outside of knuckle chucking. Below is a list of guys who are more then willing to scrap when they are called to, but also contribute in other areas of the game (goals, assists, PK, etc): * David Clarkson - 13 goals, 10 assists, 14 FM * B.J. Crombeen - 10 goals, 8 assists, 15 FM * Ian Laperriere - 7 goals, 10 assists, 12 FM * Steve Montador - 4 goals, 16 assists, 11 FM * Greg Campbell - 12 goals, 14 assists, 6 FM * Ben Eager - 8 goals, 4 assists, 8 FM * Brandon Dubinsky - 8 goals, 20 assists - 6 FM * Colin Fraser - 5 goals, 10 assists, 6 FM * Brian Sutherby - 7 goals, 4 assists, 6 FM * Aaron Voros - 8 goals, 7 assists, 9 FM * Ryan Clowe - 20 goals, 27 assists, 5 FM The list really could go on for a good 20-25 players with multiple FM's as well as decent point production and all around play. I am not saying, or "bitching" about not having an enforcer -- I want to make that clear. I am simply pointing out to my man who said "Neil type players" are hard to come by that in all reality they aren't -- you just have to look for them, and not expect 15 + goals out of them their first and second years.

Come on now, do you really have to rain on our parade like that? There is some folks on this forum that love this aspect of the game, and seeing as though Marian Hossa, one of our elite point producers, snapped a 36 game FM drought for the boys in the Winged wheel. I also want to say that all we can do (those of us who enjoy a good tilt here and there) is talk about it on the forums, seeing as though it just doesn't really happen on the ice... Ever... If you don't like the talk then why would you even bother clicking a thread titled "Hossa Fight"? I mean what did you think it would be about? If it gets to you then ignore the aspects of conversation that include fighting -- it's really that simple. I mean you guys (the individuals who would rather not carry true enforcer) have already won -- the Wings refuse to keep one on the roster. So with that said, is it really too much to ask for us fighting pugilists to get a little excited when a Winger, let alone Hossa, drops the gloves -- and wins?

Hey I was thinking about last nights fight, and I got to thinking about team FM this year in general. We are last in the NHL by quite a bit in regards too team FM, but what about other leagues? I an not talking other North American leagues, I am referring to international leagues and their FM's per team Anyways, what I found kind of surprised me -- I looked at the KHL, SEL, FEL and CZEL, and then from there took the top couple of teams and their FM's. This really is nothing more then fun, I am not claiming or trying to prove anything, just fun. If anything I guess this shows that fighting, at least in some capacity, is in fact a part of the game no matter what country you are playing in. The Detroit Red Wings: 8 FM KHL (Kontinental Hockey League): Vityaz Chekhov: 28 FM Dinamo Riga: 15 FM Metallurg Magnitogorsk: 14 FM MVD Balashikha: 13 FM Traktor Chelyabinsk: 12 FM Spartak: 9 FM Barys: 9 FM FEL (Finnish Elite League): Espoo Blues: 15 FM Pelicans Lahti: 10 FM HIFK Helsinki: 9 FM HPK Hameenlinna: 8 FM Lukko Rauma: 8 FM SEL (Swedish Elite League): HV71: 4 FM 4Brynas: 4 FM Skellefteå AIK: 3 FM Frölunda HC: 3 FM CZEL (Czech Extraliga League): Liberec: 9 FM Sparta: 8 FM Zlin: 7 FM Mlada Bloeslav: 6 FM Was surprised to see the numbers as high as they were in the FEL, as well as the KHL. Anyways, at the least this is informative regarding the myth that euro's are "soft", which doesn't seem to be the case. Oh ya, one more thing. I know someone will probably say that the majority of these fights (specifically) in the KHL are from former NHLers. While this is true, it's also true that a large portion of these fights are between players of no NHL past whatsoever.

The above is pretty much a complete bulls*** answer. Truth be told European players actually give ten times better interviews that often tip toe the line of great with certain media figures. Off the top of my head the interviews PuckDaddy, Yahoo's hockey blog, with Datsyuk, Malkin, A. Kostitsyn (I think it was Andrei, it may have been his brother though). They are incredibly honest, and open to just about everything - not to mention pretty damn funny as well. But ya, you should check them out - they are 10x better then the generic "ya we played hard, and the bounces went our way" interviews that we are inundated with night after night.

Great video, great game, and great feel to tonight's game. I am loving Hossa on this team, and am starting to get to the point where I hope Kenny does anything and everything to make sure he remains here.

Wow - to say you are completely benevolent to reality would be an understatement. That said I am going to waste little to no energy on you because no matter what anyone says or does, or how wrong the statistics show you to be, you simply will refuse to see it any other way then through your clouded googles of ignorance. I am not comparing statistics to salary - I was comparing statistics of all the Red Wings forwards to illustrate that Flip was not the 4th best forward on the Red Wings -- which Ironically was the title of the thread. Do yourself a favor and stop attempting to make a point through associating Yzerman and Flip. You sound even more ignorant then you propbably are. There is no comparison. Flip isn't close to the 4th best forward on the Wings. You know what the difference is between our viewpoint? It's simple, I have an enormanent ammount of backing via statistics of all sorts to back my claim. While you have nothing more then rhetoric, which I might ad you try (often becoming painfully desperate) to dress up with harsh critiques and patronizing insults - you fail however, rather sounding like the kid in your 5th grade class who thought he knew everything about everything but really knew nothing.

That's cute. Reminds me of my friend whose alcoholic father beats him, and is always a day late and a dollar short when it comes to anything family oriented (Ozzie), and his mom who is nice, means well, is a good parent when the dad is out of the house, but in the end still plays second fiddle to the father (that would be Conklin.)

I didn't have time to read all the responses so if you already got an answer I apologize. If not, then here ya go: Takeaways (TkA), Giveaways (GvA), Missed Shots (MsS), Blocked Shots (BkS), and much more fun stuff

Bro you need to chill out with how you title your threads. I read "Hossa is gone" and almost vomited, only to open it and read some nitwit asking a question about pure speculation that occured months ago.

You pretty much sum it up with this statement. At this point all we can really do is hope Ozzie comes around, and if he doesn't hope Conklin can pick up the slack. I don't think either scenarios are a stretch at all either.

First of all YOU ARE wrong about Cleary getting more ice time - so write it down if you have to. That said - how you come to the conclusion those numbers make a good argument for him being the 4th or 5th best forward are beyond me: - He is 9th among Red Wing forwards in total point production. - Only Zetterberg, Franzen, Datsyuk and Hossa see more ES ice time then him (not to mention he has played 17 more games then Franzen. This isn't a knock against Flip, rather it points out that total ice time on the year is not even close between Flip and Franzen. Flip has had leaps and bounds more total ice time on the year) I mean it wouldn't be that far off to sum it up by saying he doesn't posses much takeaway ability, he doesn't block shots, he doesn't hit, he doesn't score, he's decent on our second PK unit (our PK is 27th in league, so being decent on the 2nd PK unit ain't saying much), his shooting percentage (for those of you out there who go on and on about him not shooting very much) is absolutely abysmal (12th among Red Wing forwards). I am not saying we should trade him, I am not saying anything about what he makes - I am simply pointing out that Flip is no where close to the 4th best forward on the Red Wings. I did not start a thread looking for an argument (which would be the case if I created a new thread titled "Flip is far from the 4th best forward on the Red Wings") I am simply illustrating the reality of Flip and his standing among RW forwards. Oh ya, I almost forgot: Flip is not even deserving to be in the same sentence as Steve Yzerman, let alone compared too in any way, shape, or for (this includes salary.) Yzerman did more for this team then little Val could possibly fathom, let alone replicate.

A thread is made titled "Fillipula is our 4th best forward." People point out that Fillipula is far from the 4th best forward on this team. You then claim the "Flip bashing is ******* retarded." Maybe I missed something here.

OK - I didn't want to get into name calling and personal insults but if you want too, fine by me. One of us "stat sheet boys" proves that you are either a complete idiot, or realize that by any measure, of close to any category in the game of hockey Fillipula is no where near our 4th best forward. I did read your post, and quite frankly it was a long winded statement that acknowledged the fact you had no stats to back up anything you claimed, but still really, really like the guy. You used some bizarre rationale, and your rhetoric was clearly driven by personal feelings about Flip and the rest of the Red Wings forwards. Flip does not have the same numbers as the rest of the guys BECAUSE HE IS NOT AS GOOD --or should I say, he is not as good as 6-8 of the other Red Wing forwards. Period. You claim I am unintelligent, yet you're the swift thinker who makes claims while admitting you don't have the stats to back you up, while at the same time attempting to downplay the most significant measure of any professional sports player - raw numbers. I don't know if you tell yourself these things to feel better, or if you truly believe you are correct - either way I feel bad for you. Flip gets average, if not a little above average ice time per game in terms of forwards on the Red Wings. You can't deny this, you can keep trying to downplay the facts such as this, as well as the people who cite them in making argument as "useless stats", or "stat sheet boys", but in reality - they speak louder then any ludicrous statement claiming Flip is the 4th best forward on the Red Wings (two way, or offensively - it doesn't matter.) You want to talk about the small things that goes into a players worth - fine, let go ahead and do that: * Fillipula is 4th out of 4 Red Wing centers in % of face offs won. Flip's FO% won is 51.1% (42nd among NHL centers). The other Red Wings centers have a higher % of face offs won. Draper (61.2%), Datsyuk (57.2%) and Zetterberg (54.4%). * Fillipula is 5th among Red Wing forwards in even strength ice time per game at 13:36. Zetterberg (14:33), Franzen (14:14), Datsyuk (14:02), Hossa (13:57) are the four forwards who receive more even strength ice time per game then Flip. * Fillipula is 5th among Red Wing forwards in terms of Short Handed Time on Ice/per game at 1:46. Draper (2:12), Cleary (2:04), Zetterberg (1:54) and Datsyuk (1:48) all see more time on the penalty kill per game then Fillipula. * Fillipula is 12th among Red Wings forwards in total hits this year with 24. Kopecky (84), Draper (80), Franzen (70), Cleary (68), Samuelsson (62), Hossa (58), Datsyuk (56), Zetterberg (44), Holmstrom (39), Maltby (36) and Helm (29) all are ahead of Flip in total hits on the year. * Fillipula is tied in 7th among Red Wing forwards in blocked shots with 14 total blocked shots on the year. Datsyuk (23), Zetterberg (22), Cleary (21), Franzen (16), Maltby and Sammy with 15 a piece and Draper (his 7th place counterpart) has 14. * Fillipula is tied in 6th place amond Red Wing forwards in total takeaways with 13 on the year. He shares 6th place with Draper and Franzen who also have 13. Datsyuk (66), Hossa (35), Zetterberg (29), Samuelsson (17) and Maltby (14) all sit above Flip. * I will reiterate - Fillipula is 12th among Red Wing forwards in shooting percentage with S% of 7.3. Leino (25.0), Holmstrom (23.7), Hudler (17.6), McCarty (16.7), Datsyuk (14.9), Franzen (14.7), Hossa (13.5), Maltby (11.1), Zetterberg (9.9), Samuelsson (9.5) and Cleary (9.1) are all higher then Flip. * One category Flip cracks the top three among Red Wings forwards is in total Penalty minutes - he has 32 PIM on the year. The only forwards with more PIM then Flip are Hossa (40) and Samuelsson (36). So, I think this should be sufficient enough to disprove, at the least, the notion you put forward claiming Flip as being the 4th best forward (two way or one way, it doesn't really matter with this much stacked against him) on the team. Feel free to scoff statistics and those who use them. Not only will you continue to look silly, but you will sound more and more like one of those lunatics who refuses to believe in the theory of evolution, and simply disregards all the science and experts who say otherwise. But - if this stat thing is so easy (I believe you summed it up as being able to use Google) then you shouldn't have a problem finding statistics to prove your point - correct?

The sentence in bold above pretty much sums up this entire post. Not only are you wrong in close to everything you are saying here, but you are so far of base it is actually comical.That said, I do have stats to show just how asinine your declaration really is. Valtteri Filppula: * 6 Goals and 23 Assists (29 points total). Flip averages about 16:00 of ice time a night. He hasn't scored a goal in the last 12 games, but has increased his assist totals -- but then again who wouldn't with Hossa as a line mate. Let's with total ice time, and point production. As you see above Flip gets 16 minutes a night, that puts him ahead of the following: * Mikael Samuelsson (15:18) --> who has 16 goals, 20 assists (36 points) on the year. He also makes quite a bit less then Flip salaray wise. * Jiri Hudler (13:28) --> who has 19 goals, 28 assists (47 points) and also makes less money they Flip. * Tomas Holmstrom (15:18) --> has 14 goals, 16 assists (30 points). Homer makes slightly a bit more ($250 K) but due to injury has played fewer games (17 less) then Flip. Here are the forwards that receive equal or more ice time then Flip, and their totals: * Johan Franzen (17:51) --> who has 22 goals, 12 assists (34 points). It also should be noted that Franzen, like Homer, has only played 46 games this year (11 less then Flip). * Pavel Datsyuk (19:15) --> 24 goals, 46 assists (70 points). * Marian Hossa (18:24) --> 33 goals, 27 assists (60 points). * Henrik Zetterberg (19:50) --> 20 goals, 29 assists (49 points) Now, let's move on and look at where Flip sits in overall ranking with the other forwards in regards to point totals, special team play, points per game, shooting percentages, etc: * Flip currently is averaging .508 points per game. That puts him in 10th place of all Red Wing forwards in the points per game category (results and numbers below): Dats - 1.25 Hossa - 1.05 Zetterberg - .942 Hudler - .823 Holmstrom - .750 Franzen - .744 Samuelsson - .643 Leino - .625 (has only played 8 games) Cleary - .612 Fillipula - .508 * Flip is 9th among Red Wings forwards in goals scored, and 11th among all positions (Rafalski and Lids both have more goals). Forwards that are ahead of Flip in this category are the obvious (Hossa, Dats, Zetterberg), as well as Franzen, Hudler, Sammy, Holmstrom and Cleary. * Flip is 6th among Red Wing forwards and 9th among all position Red Wings in +/- with a plus 11. The forwards that are above him in this category are Dats (+30), Hossa (+18), Homer (+16), Zetterberg (+15), and Franzen (+11). * Flip is 9th among Red Wings forwards in total points and 12 among all position players (Kronwall, Lidstrom and Rafalski) all have more the Flip. Now for what I think is one of the more glaring numbers that stick out in regards to Flip. Apologists for Flip will constantly retreat to the "he doesn't shoot enough, and he will get better about it like Dats did in the future." Well this really isn't true - not the fact he doesn't shoot much (Flip is 8th among Red Wing forwards in Total Shots on Goal), but rather his overall shooting %. Take a look at the Red Wings forwards and their shooting % figures: Leino - .250 (only 8 games played) Homer - .237 Hudler - .176 McCarty - .167 (only 13 games played) Dats - .149 Franzen - .147 Hossa - .135 Maltby - .111 Zetterberg - .099 Samuelsson - .095 Cleary - .091 Fillipula - .073 OK, so that's it for right now. I think it's safe to say - that while looking at the multiple categories above, and the individuals numbers that accompany them that Fillipula is probably more like our 7th our 8th best forward. But do not worry, I will be back in a short bit to put together an informative comparison between Flip and forwards throughout the league - their point production, TOI, and overall rank among their teams forwards.

He very well could, but he would have to remain on absolute fire and then some. I also think it would be an easier feat if he was put back on a line with Hank or Dats. That's just a guess though, he is playing out of his mind right now so there is no need to change a thing.

Other memorable Red Wing playoff goals by guys CRUCIAL to the team, and whose carreers flourished here for many 'o years: (Robert Lang and Mathieu Schneider's huge goals in Game 4 against San Jose) (Martin Lapointe's goal against Philadelphia in game 3 of the 97 SCF) I was going to include a couple of Justin William's goals but I think you get what I am trying to say. And please, I repeat please do not even attempt to compare Flip to either Dats or Zetterberg in terms of production at any point in their careers: Valtteri Filppula: 2006-07 DET 73 games 10 goals 7 assists 17 points 2007-08 DET 78 19 17 36 2008-09 DET 56 6 21 27 *26 Games remaining Pavel Datsyuk 2001-02 DET 70 games 11 goals 24 assists 35 points 2002-03 DET 64 12 39 51 2003-04 DET 75 30 38 68 Henrik Zetterberg: 2002-03 DET 79 games 22 goals 22 assists 44 points 2003-04 DET 61 15 28 43 2005-06 DET 77 39 46 85

Date / Time Away / Home Team Away / Home Player Sep 30, 2008 Detroit Red Wings Kyle Quincey 2pd 09:23 Montreal Canadiens Greg Stewart Someone needs to do their homework - it wasn't much of a fight, but enough to get him his "first FM of his NHL career."

Because he puts us at our North American quota - Duh...

Ha ha, that may be true, but at least in Flip's case that "top line" you speak of won't be in Detroit.

The black is put there to mask the puck, making it harder for the goalie to see where it's coming off the stick and the little white strip is more or less a reference point for guys looking to hit him with a pass.

Scraps tend to occur as a byproduct of gritty play, and the majority of gritty play comes from role players who tend to welcome a nice tilt from time to time. That said, I love a scrap, LOVE them, and really think Downey could benefit the team. That's all I am going to say about that though, he's not up, he's probably not coming up - I realize this and am not losing any sleep over it. The fact the Wings are playing some great puck right now and winning games is quite enough for me. I am not "embarrassed" per se we have so few FM. That might be the case if we had a horrible record, had an over abundance of guys not contributing and were getting pushed around night after night on the ice - but it's not, it's actually the furthest thing from our situation. We are arguably the best team in the league right now and we are handling ourselves fine night in and night out - so with that said I can't see how anyone could possibly be embarrassed by the Wing's. Bottom line is we are winning games, and playing great hockey. Scrappers, while often a necessity, just don't seem to be needed in this lineup.

I don't know if there is somewhere, or some ongoing thread that I am supposed to post this in - if that is the case I apologize. Anyway's here is video (I am sure a lot of you have already seen it) of Donald Brashear and Colton Orr's tilt from the Caps/Rangers game last night. An absolute toe to toe battle from two of the leagues toughest. I wouldn't say it is the "best" fight of the year, however it is in the top 5 - well, in my opinion at least. So for those of you who have seen it I apologize, and for those of you who haven't, well - Enjoy:

It's not a bad move in depth if you are talking about the one being Hossa - it also helps that we have guys that will be ready to step up from GR (Abdekater, Helm, Leino, etc) At this point I am praying nightly that we keep Hossa for a couple years. The idea of him, Dats, and Zetterberg being Wings, in their prime albeit, is to much to handle. I. Want. Now

I wouldnt say we lost on the trade whatsoever. I mean claiming that the Wings "could have" drafted Mike Green and then factoring that into deciding whether it was a bad move is borderline retarted. The number of examples you could of times where teams traded away a spot which turned out to be used as a pic for a star is endless, and is worse then nitpiking through the past at draft picks we passed up in favor for some other kid who turned out to be a bust. As for Fleishmann, he is having a good season on a team that is chalk full of talent. That said I still would have traded Lang for him knowing the end result (I am not even taking the Green "could have" situation into acount on the basis it stretches "would of, could of, should of" too far for me). I guess though to really asses the "winner" and "loser" in this trade we will have to wait a couple years for Fleischmann to develop so who knows. Tomas Fleischmann: 2005-06 WAS 14 0 2 2 -7 2006-07 WAS 29 4 4 8 -6 2007-08 WAS 75 10 20 30 -7 2008-09 WAS 45 15 11 26 -4 Robert Lang: 2003-04 WAS 63 29 45 74 +2 2003-04 DET 6 1 4 5 +2 2005-06 DET 72 20 42 62 +17

You can't be serious? You want to implement this rule in the NHL? First of all the Sanderson incident that led to this whole flare up of fighting debate are two things 1) Unarguably tragic and overwhelming. 2) being unfairly used as an argument against fighting in the NHL where neither of them took place (death due to fighting), or have in the history of the game (guys lid comes off before or during the fight, he eventually falls/dragged down and dies because the lack of said helmet.) Wayne Gretzky said it best when he genuinely asked in a polite and truly questioning manner what a guy (Sanderson) was doing fighting in a senior league anyways? Some of you may remember the Chris Fox incident from years ago. Fox was a hockey player at U of M and during the off season struck Waterford resident Robert Thomas in the face during a hockey game at the Detroit Skate Club in Bloomfield Hills. "Fox ended up being charged with "assault with intent to do bodily harm less than murder" at the 48th District Court in Bloomfield Hills due to the incident because the slash Thomas to lose one tooth, and it loosened two others and chipped one - on top of that Thomas had reportedly undergone two root canals and has had several oral surgeries since the said incident. Now I realize this is an ultra extreme scenario of slashing, as is the Sanderson incident in the argument against fighting, but follow me here for a second. If the NHL were to banish fighting all together, or even implement obscene penalties and/or suspensions for fighting with a visor, not fighting with a visor, dragging, hugging, etc (all with the Sanderson case being referenced in doing so) wouldn't that be the equivalent of say making a slashing penalty in the NHL not just a 2 minute minor, but suspension worthy based on the Fox incident that happened in a beer league that is not associated with the NHL in any way shape or form? Now I know what you are thinking, "slashing someone in the face is already suspension worthy in the NHL", and that's completely true - but by making a rule over an out of league, beer league incident which is extreme in nature (Fox's slash) to cover the entire infraction of the "slash" regardless of where it took place, what part of the body, etc would be the exact same thing as taking the Sanderson case (an extreme case which took place in a senior league) and using it as the basis to cover the infraction of "fighting". I am so sick of hearing about the culture of violence in the NHL - the same points are used to make this claim over and over and over again. You hear Bertuzzi, McSorley's two hander over Brashear and now Sanderson. While these are undoubtedly horrific incidents, that cannot be a part of the game they remain just that - INSTANCES. Bad instances just like you have in MLB (head hunting, throwing 90 + mph at opposing players in general, fans attacking teams like the White Sox incident a few years back, players literally spitting in the face of an umpire, etc), the NBA (fights, attacking fans in a way that leads to a near riot, etc) and the NFL (stomping on faces of opposing linemen while they are laying on the ground, going above and beyond with helmet to helmet hitting, physically attacking own teams coaches/players in the lockerroom or on the sidelines, etc.). I guess I can just sum this all up by saying that while the Sanderson incident was beyond tragic - it is just that - a freak incident in a high tempo, physical and combative sport that is not representative of a trend, or a call for outrageous rules to be implemented in a contrived and knee jerk response manner. Once death, paralysis, or SERIOUS injury becomes a epidemic in the NHL (I have no problem if amateur, beer, and senior leagues make whatever rules they deem necessary for their organization in regards to fighting and the practice of) then we can look at changing the current rules. Hell if they change anything in the NHL why not look at the no touch icing and the instigator add on - both of those need some consideration for change more so than anything else being proposed by the anti fighting crowd.