sureWhyNot

Well when you are the foundation (or co-foundation if you want to throw Malkin in there as well) of your entire teams offense, as well as being the 22 year old captain who has raked up 120 and 72 point seasons so far while sitting on 72 points already this season there shouldn't be much surprise when the guy is made talking point A in the media. I mean I don't really like Crosby all that much, and I do think at times (like last years Cup finals) that that the coverage on him is just too much. That said, I think a lot of people tend snowball everything about the guy and the coverage of him quite a bit as well. Am I surprised that Hank was asked about completely shutting down one of the games premier talents right now, and doing so in his own building? No, I actually would be surprised if they didn't touch on that. Again - I do not want to become the Crosby coddler here. I don't really like him, I would much rather have Datsyuk, Hossa, Hank and Lids on my team, I think he is a baby, and I think he is increasingly turning into a cheap shot artist - but in a spastic toddler type of way (ass punching that guy when his teamate had him engaged, slashing Maltby's legs like a pissed of pee wee player, etc.) I just don't think last game is a good, or even fair example of over doing the Crosby angle by commentators.

Yup, this about sums it up. I do not know how some people are trying to legitimately argue that Crosby had his ass kissed by the commentators to some appalling extreme. Truth be told, the commentators were all over, and I mean all over Datsyuk (and rightly so) throughout the game, as well as the Detroit Red Wings organization as a whole (which is also true), even at one point stating "Detroit is the best franchise in the history of all sports." However my personal favorite was the infactuation with Lilja's ability to speak such beautiful and articulate English. But seriously, the point is people who are claiming the Crosby love fest was over the top are simply bitching because they have nothing else to ***** about - however it simply isn't true. That said, last years Stanley Cup finals was disgusting in regards to the love fest over Crosby - but last games not so much.

I love both of them. Seriously you can call me a homer but I have listened and/or watched a lot of other teams feeds and quite frankly I haven't come across any pair that matches up, or even comes close to matching up with Ken, Mickey AND Murph (gotta give Larry some love too.) John Keating.... Not so much.

Oh my I do not like the sounds of this. Kopecky is garbage, and any attempt to say otherwise is borderline delusional. Now if keeping Kopecky helped somehow in inticing Hossa to stay I am all for it - other then that the guy has to go. I mean he is bad - this does not take a lot to see, all you have to do is look at his stats and/or one of his shifts. To keep anyone of the guys who seem ready in GR down in lieu of giving Kopecky a spot is laughable, that is unless it helps keep Hossa (which I would be surprised if it did seeing as though these guys are profesionals and look at this as something other then a "he stays or I go" type of situation.)

Buckeye, stop trying so hard.

You reference me calling you an idiot, then declare I am a dips*** - wow you're a gem. Please show me where my numbers were off, a point in the season where Osgood was better then I stated in terms of Save % and GAA. Remember don't try to pass off the teams combines GAA and Save %, because that is not what I was talking about. What is my position on the team? I don't have one. I am a devout fan who is on the letsgowings forum with other devout Red Wings fan - I apologize if the term "we" threw you off, I didn't know that was something that could cause confusion but you proved me wrong. How am I acting like it's the end of the world? I have made 2 posts (this being my thind) in the last month and a half. In both of those posts I clearly state that it isn't the end of the world, and in one of them I clearly state that the problems we have can be fixed. Please though, if you do respond, come with something better the on sentence retorts that are more or less attempts to insult me.

You are clueless bro. Keep telling yourself that these games don't matter. In regards to your "slumps" reference I don't recall mentioning that in my post so I am confused as too why you would include it in your reply. However if you are referencing this being a "slump" for Osgood then you are just a flat out idiot. He has been last (or within 3 notches away) in GAA and Save % the entire year, from the first game of the season on. While you may think the panicking is funny, others could argue that the apologists around here are equally if not more "funny". I'll tell you this much, seeing as though we are number 1 in Goals allowed this year is enough to make one at least talk about problems. Am I saying that this is the end of the world? Nope. Do I think the Wings are having problems that can be fixed before the playoffs? Yup.

Bro I played hockey for 17 years and I am telling you that you are an idiot - and your opinion isn't "noted" nor should it be regardless of whether or not the person played hockey. The goal was a garbage goal - there is NO argument against it. Now it wouldn't be the biggest deal in the world if it wasn't for the fact Osgood is have a bad year to say the least. Fact: Tonight Osgood's GAA is .778 Fact: Osgood's GAA on the season is LAST in the league at 3.29, the league average (of all goaltenders, not just starters) is 2.73. Fact: Osgood's Save % is .880, while the league average (of all goaltenders, not just starters) is .908 Now I am not one who thinks this is the end of the world, however you would be beyond ignorant to go along and claim that this is not something to be concerned with. Basically what I am trying to say is that there are a lot of reasons people are jumping on Osggod for that first goal - mainly b/c garbage like that happens more often then not.

OK, I will keep this short and focused on pure statistics. There has been a ton of debate regarding team toughness, which unfortunately results in the same 'ole "do we need an enforcer" debate. One thing that dawned on me as I would read through the various threads dealing with the topic is that those who believe we do not have a toughness issue constantly revert too the stance that those who question our toughness and/or feel we need to add some want to "goon it up", and "are stupid and want a team full of Boogard's", etc., etc. I am somewhat puzzled at how the assertion that the Wings need to add some toughness to the lineup is the equivalent to calling for a team full of goons, or the desire to have a bunch of Boogard's instead of real hockey players. Anyways, I am starting to go on way too long here so I will get to the point of the post. Below you will see a list of Wings, their point totals for the season and the number of games they have been in the lineup for. Then below that you will see a list of players who make up the league leaders in fighting majors (remember, they are the leaders, if was going to get into guys down the list 3-4 FM but there are too many) as well as their point totals on the year & ammount of games played. These may surprise some of those who conflate "toughness" and "willingness to drop the mitts from time to time" with "goonery", and "enforcers=worthless hockey players." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kopecky: 1 Goal; 3 Assists (29 Games) Stuart: 0 Goals; 2 Assists (28 Games) Draper: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (29 Games) Meech: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (15 Games) Maltby: 2 Goals; 2 Assists (27 Games) Lebda: 2 Goals; 3 Assists (26 Games) ______________________________________ B. Prust: 1 Goal; 1 Assists; 11 FM (21 Games) D. Carcillo: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 8 FM (25 Games) D. Clarkson: 5 Goals; 4 Assists; 8 FM (26 Games) C. Janssen: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 8 FM (23 Games) J. Boll: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 10 FM (21 Games) B.J. Crombeen: 7 Goals; 6 Assists; 8 FM (16 Games) I. Laperriere: 4 Goals; 8 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games) G. Parros: 3 Goals; 5 Assists; 10 FM (27 Games) Sh. Thornton: 1 Goal; 3 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games) A. Asham: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (28 Games) E. Boulton: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (25 Games) D.Hordichuk: 3 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (26 Games) C. Neil: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (21 Games) C. Orr: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (32 Games) J. Shelley: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (27 Games) K. Barch: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 6 FM (28 Games) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take these numbers however you want, that's completely up too you. But I think it is very clear that there is a difference b/t worthless goon and guy who scraps from time to time in regards to their contribution to the teams success. This is not arguing anything, the purpose is to illustrate that when people on the boards call for more toughness, or an "enforcer", the response kinda needs to be something different then claiming that those individuals "want a team full of goons" because it implies that "goons" are worthless, have no skill, and offer nothing else then meaningless fights. Well, if these so called "goons" (ya know the guys listed above with numbers comparable to the Wings listed above them) AKA the league leaders in FM's, then we have issues with a almost a quarter of our roster contributing the same "worthless" efforts as the said "goons". Bah, this turned into a lot longer project then I wanted it too, and I apologize for those who are annoyed by it. Just figured I would throw it out there.

You are a character man, I mean your inability to comprehend pretty much anything you don't understand or agree with is beyond me -- and you do it again in this last comment . I mean you claim that ppl like you are interested in supporting the team, and guys like me are only interested in bashing it. First of all I would love to know who decided you were the holy one here who dictated who supports and who bashes the team. I love the Red Wings, and I will be damned if someone who cannot decipher dmen from forwards on a list of pretty big names what my intentions are. Secondly -- you bring up the idea of intelligent discussion. This is incrediblly ironic, especially coming from you. Have you read this post, seen the numbers - real data - that I have used in stating my point. I mean give me a break, I don't see you, or anyone else backing your arguments up with anything other then hot air and idealism. You want to have an intelligent debate about ANYTHING in hockey then I am game. But I am telling you beforehand, you will get buried.

Ha ha, anything you have to say or argue in regards to the Red Wings or hockey in general holds very, very little validity in my book. You didn't look very closely at first? HALF THE LIST WAS DMEN, how do you miss that if you look at all. So it's either a) you're not very familiar with anything in and around the NHL besides the Red Wings org. or b) (and this wouldn't suprise me) You are like so many other people on here who argue irrelevant points by literally contriving up things that aren't true whatsoever. Either way, I am not very keen on giving any argument you make much consideration.

Please, I beg you -- Point out the last year we had great success (regular season AND playoffs) without an eforecer in the lineup for an extended period of time in either the regular season or the playoffs. PLEASE fill me in b/c last time I checked, there isn't one.

You sound like an idiot -- plain and simple. I tried to think of other ways of saying it, but clearly it wouldn't have gotten through to you. For you to say that a guy who played 56 of the 82 regular season games had absolutely nothing to do with the teams overall success not only shows that you are clueless about hockey, but you really have no comprehension of team sports whatsoever. The only thing that makes me cringe worse then watching the Wings play of late is reading posts like this, from people who will sit here all year and attempt to discredit the idea of having ANY sort of muscle on the time, while at the same time insist that guys like Dats, Zett, Hossa, etc should not only be looked at for our offense (and from the looks of our goaltending we're going to need a lot of it) but also the grit and what not needed to complete a well rounded hockey team. I hate to tell ya man but you are in for a whirl of dissapointment. I am not trying to say that if we had Downey we would be playing better or win the cup, so don't even try framing it that way. We are so lacking in the "contact" aspect of hockey (you do remember it's a contact sport) that Downey or McCarty probably wouldn't do much at this point. Detroit has turned into a one trick poney -- Undersized, offensive minded forwards and undersized, and subpar dmen with a handful of absolute superstars mixed in -- those being Zetterberg, Homer, Dats, Hossa, Franzen, Lids & Rafalski. Guess what -- that will win us some games no doubt -- but it won't win you a cup.

I think it was the right choice, not to mention a option you really cannot turn down. One of the most coveted offensive powers in the game wants to come to your team, and wants a 1 yr deal which works out to being affordable to the extent we didn't have to change anything we already had set. I love Hossa, and I love the signing. Without him I see us struggling equally as bad (that is minus his 16 goals.)

Ha ha, you are the quintessential example of someone who really doesn't, nor really ever has followed hockey. Shelley is far from a goon, he is a role player yes -- but individuals like yourself don't understand the role he play thus the whole "worthless goon" argument. How many times do stars of the Game, whether it be Gretzky, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Zetterburg, Hull, the list goes on forever, have to state that they respect, and love having guys there to watch there backs and that enforcers are good for the game, and good for the skill guys on that given team. And what type of NHL are you talking about, you know, the one you mentioned in you diatribe on how worthless guys like Shelley are. Is it the same NHL that in this (the 08-09 season) has fighting up for the third consecutive year in a row? Is it that NHL? PER Mike Brophy on October 27, 2008 via sportsnet.ca Please clear it up for us.

You really managed to show your true colors in terms of how little you know about hockey: S. O'Brien, S. Montador (you know, the guy with the +15), M. Greene, M. Walker, F. Bouillon, N. Boynton & P. Mara are all dmen. I mean I assume this is the list you were talking about seeing as though the first list is made up not of my selection, rather the GUYS LEADING THE LEAGUE IN FM's, or as you like to refer too them; "goons." Sorry, I wish I could dictate who fights and when but I can't. Nice try thought - in a cute, completely inconcequntial kinda way. And no, I was not the one last year (when we had Downey and Drake) whining about not being tough enough to win the cup. You see I use a little thing called reason when I argue a point, and last year there wasn't an argument to be made that stated we weren't tought enough. Again though, nice try.

The key to a winning hockey team is being well rounded, and that the Sharks are this year. For a couple years we were not a well rounded squad (05,06), we decide to work on the element we were missing (by adding Drake and Downey) and look what happens. Please don't ask how many playoff games Downey played in, its somewhat tired. The fact of the matter is that there are 82 hockey games before the playoffs, during that time a teams mindset and makeup are formed -- and then come playoff time the role players (IE Downey) tend to fade somewhat. But it's OK, because the skill guys, the guys who weren't asked to provide everything from goals, to grit and when needed "enforcement", throughout the entirety of the regular season can shoulder it all for the span of the playoffs.

OK, here are the numbers for guys with a handful of FM's this year, we'll refer to them as "2nd tier tough guys", or whatever. Also, ppl keep mentioning that there are Red Wings who people keep saying contribute in other ways, which is very true. Ppl also keep saying that guys like Lebda and Stuart are dmen so they won't have as many goals (as if it didn't go without saying), which is also true. But I do want to point out that a ton of the guys who I have used in comparing their numbers to the Wings play for horrible teams - I mean who knows what they would be putting up on a winning squad. Also, I have included dmen in with forwards for both the Red Wings and the comparison players, so the whole "but Stuart and Lebda are dmen" argument is somewhat null and void. Anyways, here is the list of "2nd tier tough guys" ------------------------------------------------------ A. Voros: 8 Goals; 6 Assists; -3; 6 FM C. Fraser: 1 Goal; 6 Assists; -1; 5 FM S. O'Brien: 0 Goals; 6 Assists; +1; 6 FM C. McCormick: 1 Goal; 6 Assists; +2; 5 FM S. Montador: 2 Goals; 6 Assists; +15; 5 FM B. Eager: 5 Goals; 1 Assist; 0 (Even); 4 FM M. Greene: 1 Goal; 5 Assists; +5; 4 FM A. Mair: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; 0 (Even); 4 FM M. Walker: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; +7; 4 FM F. Bouillon: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; +4; 4 FM N. Boynton: 4 Goals; 5 Assists; -2; 3 FM T. Brouwer: 3 Goals; 7 Assists; +6; 3 FM D. Byfuglien: 5 Goals; 5 Assists; +3; 3 FM R. Carter: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; +9; 3 FM B. Dubinsky: 5 Goals; 12 Assists; -2; 3 FM S. Hartnell: 10 Goals; 9 Assists; -1; 3 FM P. Mara: 2 Goals; 9 Assists; -2; 3 FM B. Sutherby: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; +6; 3 FM (Been on IR Since Nov 21st) D. Backes: 7 Goals; 7 Assists; -1; 3 FM ----------------------------------------------------------- Now I could go third tier as well (guys with 1-2 FM this year) but then things would start getting quite extensive, and well -- the argument my side makes gets a lot stronger. However since there are so many guys with 1-2 FM this year I have opted against doing so. Again, feel free to rationalize however you would like, keep conflating toughness/enforcer with goon, keep citing last years playoffs without acknoledging the fact we dressed two more then willing guys all year long, keep doing whatever makes you feel good. Facts are facts, numbers are numbers -- and like it or not, they speak volumes.

You are as dense as they come bud. Read my posts and you will see what my point was. Also, and this goes back to my first point READ my posts before replying -- Lilja is not on the list, not because he has a ton of goals (because that's the only category I included in the analysis and all -- riiight) but b/c of his +/-, assists, hits, etc.

You are actually pretty far off base -- fighting in the NHL is up for the third consecutive year in a row now, and it is pretty clear that the instigator penalty will be banished in the near future (1-3 years). Please stop throwing names out when you have no clue what you are tlaking about. Kocur was a hell of a player, and did more for this team then half the guys on the roster will come close too.

Yet you seem to forget that we also dressed Downey and Drake the entire year, giving us a heap load of toughness throughout the year that we ended up not getting eliminated in the first or the second round.

Ha ha, I love the whole "who isn't a liability" argument - mainly because it is one that the "our toughness is fine as is" and "enforcers are goons and worthless - we don't want one" crowd". Like the majority of this groups arguments, it is not backed up by anything resembling FACT. So, to prove this I will share some numbers (yes, statistics, not opinion). Tell me what ya think: --------------------------------------------- Kopecky: -7 Stuart: -4 Draper: -11 Meech: -4 Maltby: -4 Lebda: -3 ______________________________________ B. Prust: -4 D. Carcillo: -6 D. Clarkson: +1 C. Janssen: -4 J. Boll: -2 B.J. Crombeen: 0 (Even) I. Laperriere: +6 G. Parros: +10 Sh. Thornton: 0 (Even) A. Asham: -1 E. Boulton: -1 D.Hordichuk: +4 C. Neil: -7 C. Orr: -2 J. Shelley: 0 (Even) ------------------------------------------------------------ So you can process that however you want, you can use whatever rationalization to make your argument - its all fine, I just think it's important that the numbers are out there. Also, I don't want you thinking I am trying to prove that the league leaders in fighting are by any means all stars, I'm not. I am trying to show that enforcers are not completely "worthless", well at least not all of them, they are putting up the same numbers (some better, some worse - but for the most part the same) as quite a few of our guys, the only difference is that they also offer an aspect that our guys don't -- toughness. Oh, and in response to your "blah blah blah show me how many of those guys are in the top 40 scoring" comment - First of all please bro. None of the league leaders in fighting are in the top 40 scoring, and if you are waiting for a guy who is - well, unfortunately you will be waiting a very long time. However there is quite a few players in the top 40 in overall points who have a FM here and there (please not the numbers below are all from this year alone -- NOT carreer, this year only): R. Getzlaf (2), J. Thorton (2), M. Richards (2), S. Doan (1), Iginla (2), C. Perry (2), R. Clowe (3), B. Gionta (1), I. Kovalchuk (1), S. Weber (2), V. Lecavalier (1), etc. (I am tired as hell so I stopped looking.) It's also important to note there is a while other group of individuals (Arnott, D. Brown, etc) who have FM this year. Cheers and good night...

Ummm, I kinda agree with your argument in the sense that Brad Stuart is a hell of a lot more important, thus uncompariable, to the guys on the list and even Draper to some extent. But other then that, no I do not agree with you at all. I am sure you would rather have the Wings players, but again, this was shut the ppl up who automatically conflate "enforcers" with "worthless goons". By comparing a chunk of our team with the league leaders in fighting it does 1 of 2 things. 1) Shows that the Wings with comparable stats are as worthless as the goons who mirror if not exceed them in point contribution. or 2) Illustrates that the Wings players listed are just as "worthless" as the "goons" people here loathe so much with the only difference being the "worthless" Red Wings don't fight either. I think it's also important to point out that a lot of the guys I compared to the Wings on the list above play for bad teams (who knows what they would put up, probably not much more, but who knows), and a lot of the guys above get quite a bit less ice time per night then the Wings players listed. That's all.

It's tough to say for me. I mean I loath Pronger, it's that gap tooth goof ball and Tootoo who make up my "most hated NHL'ers" list. That said, if Pronger were to become a Wing I think the transformation would be exactly like it was when Chelios came here (a response earlier in this thread explains it pretty well.) I mean Chelios was absolutely HATED by Wings fans, much more so then Pronger -- I know it may be hard to believe but it's the truth. So even though I say I would still hate him if he came here, I am pretty sure that he would become a welcomed commodity sooner then later once he began contributing. But who knows, he certainly is a POS. But that was certainly the perception, to a greater extent even, Detroit fans had to Chelios. And the feeling was mutual, which can be seen below. I am sure the majority of you have seen it or remember it, but for reference it's a video of Chris Chelios telling Mike North he hates Detroit and he'd never play there.

Ya I definitely hear what you are saying in regards to Draper and Stuart - both of them are incredibly important, and are critical when it comes to things like face offs, which you mentioned above (my personal opinion is that faceoffs is the most important statistic that people don't focus on). The purpose of my post wasn't too say we should have guy X with X amount of FM instead of Red Wings player A, B, C. It was too curb, or at least attempt to curve, the correlation so many ppl have on this board that enforcers=goons=worthless. That simply isn't the case. To be completely honest there really isn't any "goons" in the league any more. I mean go back and look at the broad street bullies, or guys like like "Missing" Link Gaetz -- those are "goons". Guys like Boogard and Godard are def. pure enforcers in the sense that they are pretty one dimensional, but they are far from "goons".