sureWhyNot

OK, I will keep this short and focused on pure statistics. There has been a ton of debate regarding team toughness, which unfortunately results in the same 'ole "do we need an enforcer" debate. One thing that dawned on me as I would read through the various threads dealing with the topic is that those who believe we do not have a toughness issue constantly revert too the stance that those who question our toughness and/or feel we need to add some want to "goon it up", and "are stupid and want a team full of Boogard's", etc., etc. I am somewhat puzzled at how the assertion that the Wings need to add some toughness to the lineup is the equivalent to calling for a team full of goons, or the desire to have a bunch of Boogard's instead of real hockey players. Anyways, I am starting to go on way too long here so I will get to the point of the post. Below you will see a list of Wings, their point totals for the season and the number of games they have been in the lineup for. Then below that you will see a list of players who make up the league leaders in fighting majors (remember, they are the leaders, if was going to get into guys down the list 3-4 FM but there are too many) as well as their point totals on the year & ammount of games played. These may surprise some of those who conflate "toughness" and "willingness to drop the mitts from time to time" with "goonery", and "enforcers=worthless hockey players." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Kopecky: 1 Goal; 3 Assists (28 Games) Stuart: 0 Goals; 2 Assists (27 Games) Draper: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (28 Games) Meech: 1 Goal; 2 Assists (15 Games) Maltby: 2 Goals; 2 Assists (26 Games) Lebda: 2 Goals; 3 Assists (25 Games) ______________________________________ B. Prust: 1 Goal; 1 Assists; 11 FM (21 Games) D. Carcillo: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 8 FM (25 Games) D. Clarkson: 5 Goals; 4 Assists; 8 FM (26 Games) C. Janssen: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 8 FM (23 Games) J. Boll: 0 Goals; 3 Assists; 10 FM (21 Games) B.J. Crombeen: 7 Goals; 6 Assists; 8 FM (13 Games) I. Laperriere: 4 Goals; 8 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games) G. Parros: 3 Goals; 4 Assists; 10 FM (26 Games) Sh. Thornton: 1 Goal; 3 Assists; 8 FM (29 Games) A. Asham: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (28 Games) E. Boulton: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 7 FM (25 Games) D.Hordichuk: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (25 Games) C. Neil: 2 Goals; 1 Assist; 7 FM (21 Games) C. Orr: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (32 Games) J. Shelley: 1 Goal; 2 Assists; 7 FM (27 Games) K. Barch: 2 Goals; 2 Assists; 6 FM (28 Games) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Take these numbers however you want, that's completely up too you. But I think it is very clear that there is a difference b/t worthless goon and guy who scraps from time to time in regards to their contribution to the teams success. This is not arguing anything, the purpose is to illustrate that when people on the boards call for more toughness, or an "enforcer", the response kinda needs to be something different then caliming that those individuals "want a team full of goons" because it implies that "goons" are worthless, have no skill, and offer nothing else then meaningless fights. Well, if these so called "goons" (ya know the guys listed above with numbers comparible to the Wings listed above them), then we have issues with a almost a quarter of our roster contributing the same "worthless" efforts as the said "goons", AKA the league leaders in FM's. Bah, this turned into a lot longer project then I wanted it too, and I apologize for those who are annoyed by it. Just figured I would throw it out there.

I agree with almost everything you are saying here. The one thing I may feel differently about is the idea of the Sharks fading as the year goes on. I think the Sharks are as dangerous as any team in the NHL, if not the most dangerous (argument could be made that Boston is as well). They are a talented ass team, and that ain't going to fade. But what you are saying about responsibility, and our guys stepping up, or the lack there of is 100% dead on correct.

Huge goal - Hossa and mule executed that bad boy to a tee, whiteboard in the lockerroom style. That said, losing McClellan hurt big time. Is it the reason for 100% of our issues, of course not -- But did it hurt? Yes, without a doubt.

This team is not the same team as last year. Unfortunately it is quite a bit different then last years team. And for everyone who keeps telling others to get a grip in response to complaints, I ask you to please open your eyes. I understand some complaining is both annoying and far fetched, but too argue that things aren't very, very downtrodden for this squad is asinine.

You are also forgetting about Dallas Drake, who was incrediblly tough (whether you like his style is a diff. conversation) and gritty. And the whole "well they didn't (Downey), or they "hardly" (Mac) is downright laughable. The reality of the NHL is that there is a 82 game season followed by the playoffs . I mean don't you find it just a tad ironic that we struggle in the playoffs a couple years in a row -- from around 03-04 until 07-08, go back to the drawing table, come out with a tougher team (aka more well rounded) by bringing in Drake and Downey (and Mac towards the end of the season) and we win the cup. I am not going to try to explain myself anymore, I know I will get ripped for it regardless of the information and/or argument I put out there, so that's that. To answer, or should I say, offer my .02 cents on the threads question all I will say is that I believe that we need a little more grit inserted into the lineup (I am completely aware it ain't happening) however we do not need to go looking for a goon. I mean the question is beyond hypothetical seeing as though Holland would NEVER, EVER dress, pursue, etc. someone regarded as a goon. PS: If you substitute anyone (Downey, Mac, free agent) into the lineup and move Kopecky there would be no negative impact what so ever. But hey, Kopecky's about to break out any day now (2 yes and waiting...)

Ya, you're right. I guess I just don't like the fact that's how it's called nowadays. But what can ya do ya know. I have more or less been venting because I am perplexed as too why they Wings have been playing the way they have over the past couple weeks. I know they are winning, but I mean - maybe it's just me - but it has been literally the most uninspired hockey I have ever seen out of them. Got so bad today I whipped out the ole "Det Red Wings: A Celebration of Champions" box set and rifled through some of their greatness. ***McCollum (sp?) looking sharp... I like it.

Very true.

That was a weak call - I mean I'll take it for sure, but Mick said it best: "What would you think if that call was made against your team." Or something like that. Seems like the games are just chalk full of bad calls -- bad calls that go in every which way. Takes away from the game kinda.

LOL

Kinda a draw, but (haha) the second one is from 2 yrs back when Brad Norton fought, and beat Roy as well. I mean it seems like Roy always, no matter how hard it may be, drops the mitts when playing the Wings: Downey vs. Roy Norton vs. Roy

LOL, I wouldn't say "goons". The league hasn't had a true goon squad since maybe the Panthers, mid-90's, and even they were tame compared to some of the philly squads years back. The Flames however do know they can do that, when and where they want too. PS: Downey beat up on Roy last year while Roy was still in Tampa

Motherfugger... I hate that... I cannot stand when our skill guys get put it in that position.

Good god, that was pretty.

I think we need some size at least on the blueline. I mean we really get dominated down low more often then not, and it seems as though our lack of size has a lot to do with it. Who knows, I am just throwing it out there.