Carman

Kunitz and Fil are about a was. Dupuis and Cleary are about a was offensively, although Cleary has just been brutal the start of this year. Take away Crosby's powerplay points and he stay is more productive. Pavel needs to start finishing, and I believe he will, he's too good not to.

Crosby produces with Kunitz and Dupuis. No excuses for Datsyuk.

Dan Cleary.

Good shift for the 4th line there several chances.

bottom 6 turning it up.

Mrazek!!!! So far so good tonight, surprising.

Cleary! He's done something yay! Hopefully he can start

Back on to the discussion I agree with you Harold on pretty much everything, Howard isn't at Quick's level in my opinion, but he's not far off. Before the all star break I feel Howard was playing at this level that Quick was playing at, now Quick stayed there longer and through the playoffs which gives him a big edge. But the difference in the two will easily be negated by his contract, and that's the main point I was trying to get. Howard won't be making close to 6 million like Quick, and it's not like the age difference is that great either, 2 years. I just don't see how Howard is average, in any sense of the word. And I don't know what goalies are "elite", and how do you get there. And then how would we go about and get this elite goalie that will be a Hasek incarnate and be able to win Vezina's behind terrible teams(something that I believe doesn't exist right now in the NHL). And that was my other point, I just don't see how there are 15 goalies better than Howard.

So Jimmy was .09 SV% and .18 GAA away from being a Hart trophy candidate? That's pretty damn close to elite is it not? Howard has proven to play at a top 5 goalie level for an entire season. There are not many goalies I'd take over him, and even fewer when you know Howard's not going to be paid like a top 5 goalie.

The guy I quoted. And I know it was a different game, fact is goalies go through bad stretches, that's all I meant.

Babcock has never seemed to be the best at using goalies. If Howard is too tired to start tonight, he shouldn't have played against the Flames. Then again, maybe he felt good, Babcock went him him, and now he's fatigued. Either way it's a questionable decision by Babcock who has not had the best history with goaltenders. Why not start a offensively focused depth defenseman against a stingy turn over forcing team with a rookie starting his first game. I'm confused.

Let's take a look at career stats shall we. .916 SV% 2.44 Howard .916 SV% 2.31 Quick .917 SV% 2.53 Price .915 SV% 2.58 Miller .915 SV% 2.52 Bryz .913 SV% 2.46 Kiprusoff And if you want to say well right now Howard's stats aren't good and he's playing without LIdstrom for the first time, I can find 10 game segments of Brodeur, Sawchuck, Roy, Hasek having worse stats then Howard. Like I said, Howard is taken for granted here, he's not elite, but really Lundqvist, Rinne, and to an extent Luongo are the only goalies that are statistically elite for more than one year. And each of those goalies have had their struggles behind a crap defense.

Chelios ran some camps during the lockout, had connections with his son Dean, was awesome.

He's a fun guy, trained with him one summer. He's just nuts, that's all. I don't think he ever stops talking either. He just wouldn't fit with the Wings, his personality would clash with how this team is run. He can't turn off his on ice persona.

one of the few goalies that's started every game for his team. But I agree, this is a hell of a game to throw Mrazek in. Sink or swim, hopefully this puts some pressure on the team knowing they have a rookie starting.

Like who?

Ferrarro is a center with a lot of speed. He has been so bad the past couple years that him actually improving is making a bunch of us giddy about him, I can see him being an upgrade to Emmerton pretty easily. And Sheahan has been consistently strong defensively, physical and can chip in offensively. Neither of these guys will be top 6 players, at least as of now.

Howard is not the problem, the Red Wings lead the league on 2 on 1's, and breakaways the highest chance of scoring chances there are, it's not a surprise his stats reflect. The only thing we can come to a judgement on is that Howard is not a generational type goalie that can steal games behind the worst defense in the league. But I'd like to hear what current goalies in the NHL can? A goalies stats are so reliant on the defense in front of them, Mike Smith was a top 5 goalie last year, solely because of the defensive system. Brian Elliot and Halak are another examples of system goalies. Who are the Hasek's of today's age? The elite goalies of today struggle just as much as we are seeing Jimmy struggle now. RInnie had a .911, 2.53 GAA season, Quick had a .907, 2.54 season and currently has a sub .900 SV% like Jimmy. Haseek had a .896 SV% 3.25 GAA Season. Curtis Joseph .886 SV% 3.44 GAA. Patrick Roy had a .875 SV% 3.35 GAA. These are at least 40 game segments of "elite" goalies, Are all these goalie not capable of stealing games? No. They just played on poor defensive teams, much like Jimmy is playing behind right now. I think Howard get taken for granted a lot here, watch other teams. Rebounds happen on each and every goalie. It's true Howard hasn't been amazing this stretch, but put whatever other elite goalie you want behind the team leading the league in odd man rushes and you'll have the same result each and every time. To give you an idea Jimmy Howard has a better career SV% to Martin Brodeur and Patrick. Not that it means anything, the game has changed a bit, but it shows that Howard can win games, and be an all-star goalie for a cheaper salary.

With how he's playing we can't afford to have him right now. I'm usually on the conservate let's not be too hasty side, but Cleary has just been dreadful, and is costing this team dearly with his penalties. Worst part is I don't see him getting less minutes, Babcock just keeps playing him like there isn't an issue. I'm entirely confused on the whole situation.

cleary is the best

new goalie! Let's not go too hard on him Franzen.

Franzen scored .43 goals per game in the playoffs, Yzerman scored .35, and Fedorov .28 Franzen is clearly among the best no?

Good period, we tied them in the second. Build on it in the third! Loving our team right now, Howard is playing great, Franzen is looking like Lindros in his prime. Good things are happening folks!

Scott parker's goals per game was .002. Franzen is among the best goal scorers in the history of the NHL, why do you hate him so much?

Babcock is killing me, I'm not even blaming Cleary anymore. Babcock can't put this guy out there, he can't compete without taking a penalty.