Carman

Eh, it's their income and salary. We would all try to get the most we could as well. Now if he doesn't take a decent deal and bails to the KHL then I'll judge him. But all he's doing there is keeping his options open.

I seriously hate Hudler for spitting in the face of our franchise and ruining our chances for a cup last year.

He's not overly physical, and was supposed to be an offensive defenseman that didn't produce offensively last year in Calgary. He has great size and great skating ability, and that's what's frustrating he's pretty inconsistent.

Fighting falls under the intangible category. Some people value it more then others. I just fail to see the benefits of having one of your players in the box for 5 minutes.

You are basing my intelligence on forum posts that disagree with your views regarding enforcers and their role in hockey . Something is telling me that doesn't seem to be the best way to judge my intellectual ability.

Nice to resort to petty insults. I won't be able to sleep. Holland is a great GM, I trust that he knows what's best. I don't think the Red Wings are going to suck because they don't have a player that plays 3 minutes a night and punches people.

*Reads the topic title.* Oh. Wings don't need Downey, or any player that plays like him. End of story.

There is nothing tough about sitting in a box for 5 minutes, sorry. I'd rather have someone out there hitting.

Salei, Ericsson, Stuart, Abdelkader, and Bertuzzi are more then enough you don't need to fight to be tough.

An enforcer that can't skate or contribute at all besides fists? Zero.

He signed them just to sell tickets, he knew they sucked at playing hockey and couldn't help the team win.

How many of those teams make the playoffs for 20 straight years and have 4 cups in 12 years? I'll trust Holland over any other GM. Fighting is only useful for entertainment purposes, I'd like a fighter on the team just because it's fun to watch, not because it helps the team win.

None what-so-ever. I'm not saying fighting is useless, but I am saying a player that can only fight is useless. I would of liked a Brandon Prust type player, but not a Aaron Downey type player.

Good we don't need a useless plug on the 4th line. There is no room for a one dimensional enforcer in today's game, especially on the Red Wings. Our powerplay is our enforcer.

Guess so. The NHL uses NBC as it's main attraction for new fans, so they will market Crosby to try and get those viewers interested. The HBO special, NHL network, XM etc. are more for the person who already is follows hockey, so you won't see the "beginner" advertising as much.

The thing with Crosby is he's shown two different offensive skill sets, he came in as an elite play-maker, then filled his teams need of goals by shooting more and focusing in on goals rather then passing. He was his team's main offensive focus, but mostly created his own opportunities, while playing with less talent. He scored 32 more points then the 2nd place person on his team, and 59 more then the 3rd that's just staggering. He was so important to his team last year, and that's why I'd say his offense was more needed for his team then his defense, if he were to play a very conservative defensive game his team might not have been able to score the goals to win games. It really depends on the team, the Red Wings have a lot of scoring depth and Pittsburgh is mainly a two player offensive team it's a difference and the top players on each team need to play differently to cover the weaknesses of the team. Very good point on the true shut down centers, there aren't many at all that can score and shut down. If people are going to criticize the marketing of the league for over marketing one player obviously that player is going to be talked about. His defensive play has to do with the talk that he is or it not one of the games two best players, which is relevant because a league usually does market the best players more than the very good.

I agree about the overall importance of defensive ability, it's a shame it's not more valued in Hart trophy voting and in the media. But still scoring points is usually considered a much harder task then being a shut-down defensive player, that's just the nature of the game, so naturally a person posting 100+ point campaigns is going to get ranked higher in terms of ability. Now if we were comparing the players on value to the team, I'd have Zetterberg/Datsyuk ranked right up there with Crosby/Ovechkin, but really it comes down to a personal preference of defense/offense. Again I think you undervalue his board work in the defensive zone he wins a lot of battles in his zone, and makes a great breakout pass it's one of the things that really sets him apart. watching him play I've noticed his improvements in his own zone, and the smarter decisions he's making in the offensive zone. He was very average, to even below average his first couple years defensively, I'm not going to argue that. But last year he was noticeably improved in this area. The face-offs is very subjective, I'm not going to dwell on that much, Toews/Bergeron are the players I'd put up with him this year, as they actually took the majority of their team's draws verse the best centers. Sure Crosby took alot of faceoffs, but his % is right up there with everyone else whiletaking that many. He's really improved in that aspect, and that's why I brought it up. And I value defense, that's why I'd choose Crosby over Ovechkin. But seeing that Crosby's improvements on his end, while still scoring 50+ goals as a center makes him pretty damn rare(Not to mention with a Malkin off year). So I guess I do value offense more then you, but I still think it's important. I also think it has a lot to do with the coach and system in place, I'm sure if you had Bowman coaching a Crosby or Ovechkin that their natural talents would allow them to be at least very good defensive players, if not great. So I guess I give them a break in that regard. I'm just looking at their consistency of point production, coupled with the fact that their teams aren't exactly bottom feeders, and have been fairly successful in the playoffs, that their play hasn't really hurt their teams ability to win. I'd say Datsyuk is a top 5 player easy, but that 70 point season hurt him. I'm willing to sacrifice defense for points, but there has to be a value where Outstanding defensive play + 70 points does not equal Good defensive play + 110 points I guess my values may be a little higher on the points then yours, and that's ok. Goal scoring isn't easy, there is a reason 2-3 50 goal 100 point guys a year, and 10-15 true shut down defensive centers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqyTno3KoAI

He was pretty good before Thornton, a solid 15-20 goal guy. He had great chemistry with Thornton and managed to just get a unbelievable season which put expectations extremely high. He had injuries, and no longer played with an elite playermaker, which killed his confidence. He couldn't return to a 20 goal guy due to the combination of not having an elite play-maker, injuries, and confidence.

Should I bold seasons. Have to do it for more then one season man, Crosby and Ovechkin have been up there perennially since they've entered the league. Not to mention everyone complained about Crosby's point production for secondary assists in the Ovechkin vs. Crosby debate, yet Sedin had 75% of his points as assists yet doesn't endure the same criticism with the Hart trophy...

That bolded part is just absurd. You are really underrating Crosby's defensive game. His boardwork, and backchecking are fantastic. And he was easily one of the top 2 face off men last year. It's not like Crosby's a defensive liability when he plays he's not a floater in the offensive zone and regularly the last person on the back check like other 100+ point players the past couple years. I'd love examples of his poor defense, before last year I'd agree that his defensive play was mediocre at best, but last year while being his team top offensive threat, still played a role on the penalty kill, took defensive zone faceoffs, and was always on the ice for the important defensive situations. Crosby has offensively put up the best numbers consistently for any center since entering the league(besides his 06-07 50 game season, but using Eva logic his PPG was great as well), couple that his vast improvements in his positioning, faceoffs, skating, and just learning the center posistion I find it very very hard to not him as at least the top 2 players currently in the game. Ovechkin, and Crosby are it, and it's no use debating the two because they are different players. Stamkos, Sedin, Keith, Miller etc. need to start putting up Hart trophy seasons for a couple more years for me to really put them in that category.

Like penalty killing, face-offs, defensive coverage? There isn't a better defensive center that scores 80+ points.

How's that not a penalty on Patty Kane?

Nice rebound control. I don't think Ozzie has ate up one puck tonight...

Almost had one towards the end of the powerplay. And another PP, good pressure by our young guns. Mursak is looking very very good.