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This is what I say when people say Osgoods should be retired. Seriously how is Kelly not up there?

The habs have that many because they are by far the number 1 all time franchise, I cant think of any number they have retired that shouldnt be. As for the wings, Lidstrom will be and thats it probably. No Osgood, Homer and Draper wont. They were great redwings but not all time great players like everyone else in the rafters. If Red Kelly isnt up there, its hard to make an argument for anyone else really

Moen has a talent for punching people, with his one more fight then Abdelkader this year youre right thats why I like him more, give your head a shake. I guess we agree to disagree, Moen is a very solid skater and at least on par with Abdelader. As for faceoff percentage, well no s*** hes a left winger thats why he doesnt take draws? One thing Moen does do, is be on the go to PKing pairing for the leagues number 1 penalty kill. Hmm, lets see where does Detroit need help... Oh thats right the penalty kill and the coach also wants a tough, physical winger for the playoff run. Adding Moen is perfect for what the wings want and need to improve, you have to be blind to not see that. It doesnt matter if you like Abdeklader more or not (I think hes developing into a VERY solid player) but he and Moen would work perfectly with eachother. Abdelkader is a great defensive center, shut down Doan last year in the playoffs and Moen is also great defensively while both are tough.

I completely disagree. Moen is one of the better bottom 6ers in the league actually. Defensively, he was a critical part of the best checking line assembled since the grind line and is a great PKer. Saying Miller is better defensively only shows you haven't watched Moen play or youre a homer because Miller is on the wings. As for Eaves bringing more offense, yeah maybe about 5 more points a season. Moen already has 9 goals this year in 46 games. Eaves has only ever scored 13 as a redwing and now who knows how he'll be when he returns. Moen has 16 points already this season, the most Eaves has had as a wing is 22. Moen has also never played on a team with the depth Detroit has except for on that 07 ducks team. So basically, Moen is better defensively then Miller and I would say on par with Eaves (pre injury eaves) offensively, while being a better PKer then these guys, a solid hitter (wings dont have many of these) and also a very solid fighter who is also willing (wings have none). He is a MUCH better option then Emmerton, Mursak (He doe have upside but has limited time to get in shape), Eaves (injured and out of shape), hes better than Miller, and provides everything Abdelkaderr does while being better. Moen is the perfect bottom 6 toughness this team needs to add, giving Emmerton and a 5th would be a good deal for him

Its not the number that matters, its the fact that they had a plethora of guys who could step up and deal with it when they had to. When the going got tough against teams like the Avs, the wings had guys like Mccarty, Shanny, Kocur, Vladdy, Pushor, and Rouse who could all open up a can of whoop ass when they had to. If you cant see the difference between that roster and the one now then you are delusional

The fact that TSN has been talking about the wings so much makes me really excited for the trade deadline, there must really be fire for them to be reporting this much on a non canadian/non penguin team. It seems Babs has wanted another heavy winger for a while now and he should finally get his wish. The obvious one is his former player Travis Moen. Hes a playoff type player, good defensively, great PKer and tough. Dreger said Detroit has kicked the tires with Montreal about him. Gaustad is also a very solid centerman that could bump Helm down to the fourth line and move Abdelkader to the wing But the thing is that with physical bottom line types, pretty much anyone could be available, not just free agents. Columbus could possibly part with Boll or Dorsett which would be awesome and give the wings another guy who is tough to play against, preferably Dorsett. My dream player would be to get Matt Martin out of New York. The kid is a hitting machine, young and can scrap as well. He is a complete wrecking ball and always near the top of the league in hits. He could provide a physical presence noone on this team does. Thorburn or Slater out of the peg would be solid additions to the bottom of the lineup. Make Matt Martin happen Kenny!

Morrow would be a good addition but I really hope the wings get Moen. He could help the terrible PK, give some toughness and has proven capable of shutting down top players when given the chance. Emmerton plus a 5th for Moen would be great. I think Morrow will cost more then he is worth, but hes definitely a player who has that "Dallas Drake" kinda feel to him for sure

They play it every now and again. And yeah Pittsburgh does have the best, but its hard to beat lions games song selection if you like metal. I have a feeling Schwartz has a say in the matter, when youre banging your head to slayer during a game its pretty awesome haha

I wish Detroit rock city would get played more. And after a Cleary Ise da B'ye would be pretty sweet

Yup he definitely upped the physicality when the game called for it thats for sure, so did Helm. They both need to bring that more consistently

GMR are you serious? We should trade ABdelkader and get a real tough 4th liner? Or maybe this team could just get another tough 4th liner so Abdelkader actually has someone to back him up here and there. If the guy had back up he would be great, he used to stir s*** up with May all the time. I remember the one game in Minny Clutterbuck and Burns both dropped the gloves at separate occasions with Abdelkader. Hes definitely a tough physical forward, you just had your hopes up for the next coming of Mccarty which Abdelkader isnt. He is a great complimentary tough guy and plays even tougher when he has some back up on his line. This team as a whole is completely soft, once they get someone else in there with Abby that will go into a scrum and back him up youll see him playing tough again. Its no coicidence that when he was with GR on one of the toughest teams in the league he was killer out there. Also gotta move him from center

Hes awesome defensively but when hes at center he cant play his crash and bang style. Wings need to trade Emmerton for a real fourth line center and move Abby to wing where he actually scores and hits. A fourth line center would improve the team by improving at center but moving Abdelkader to wing would be ahuge help in the grit department I think

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2012/01/red_wings_plan_to_explore_opti.html "There’s the odd trade at the deadline that changes the balance of power, but at the end of the day, when I look at the Vancouver Canucks last year, they made some real nice trades at the deadline that gave them some depth, brought them some grit and were important players. Boston made two or three trades as well. They weren’t the big names, they were guys that were the perfect fit." A complimentary scorer and a gritty player is what they need to add This to me makes it sound like the perfect idea. A big name like Parise but for the price is probably completely ridiculous. I do like how he likes what the Canucks did because I agree with that and what they did. Added a couple third/fourht line tpyes that really solidified the bottom 6, Detroits top 6 has skill already. More than making a big splash they need to trim the fat. Emmerton, Miller, Mursak, etc arent all gonig to play in the playoffs so bundle a couple of them up to upgrade our bottom 6. I like Tuomo Ruutu, he gives them a gritty, abrasive forward that can also be a very good depth scorer. He shouldn't cost a tonne either. I also would like to see Gaustad come center a bottom 6 line. He is great on faceoffs, tough and very good defensively. He and Helm can each see a solid amount of time PKing and both the third and 4th line will have a very reliable center so that all lines can be rolled nicely. Adding Travis Moen would also be nice. Great on the PK, a bull on skates and also adds that grit. Ruutu would be my first target

Me likey. Would you say he plays pretty physical or just one lucky hit?

Yeah but lets throw cages on NHL players and get rid of fighting in the game so that s*** like this can boil over instead of 2 guys squaring up

Dont worry about him, hes a tool. I for one appreciate the fact that people like you with inside info are willing to share it. You obviously know his situation well, what do you think the chances are overall that he goes to the wings? 80%? I've also read his game compares a bit to Stuart. Big guy, ok skater and can move the puck half decent while having a bit of an edge to his game.. sound accurate?

With Howard only 27 and Petr Mrazek becoming one of the better goalie prospects out there, I dont think theres a need to take Malcolm Subban

http://powerscouthockey.com/blog/measuring-impact-nhl-fights-momentum-and-scoring-well-potential-coachs-strategy This recently published study was done to see if fighting really does impact the momentum of the game, the guy who conducted it has a few University degrees and is an economics major so hes good with data. They used the rate of shots on goal after a fight as a way to measure momentum, they decided this was the best way to quantify what you visually see on the ice and call momentum. Its not perfect but when I tihnk of a team with a tonne of momentum, shots on goal and maybe puck possession to an extenet is what I would call it. I think they used a good metric here. They found that in over 75% of games after a fight, at least one team recieved a boost in their momentum, this is short term momentum taken over a 5 minute period. Basically, a boost that gets a teams head out of its ass if theyre playing poorly. Appleby was on hockey central at noon and said that a poor period for a team would usually be around 4 shots on goal while the average is about 10. The teams that were having poor periods and not getting many shots on goal received the biggest boost by far. Basically, its saying that if a team is playing well a fight may give a small boost, no boost or the other team may get the boost BUT when a team is playing like s***, a fight will usually give a pretty big boost to the team. Earlier this year when Abdelkader fought Lappierre in Vancouver is a prime example of this, the wings got a big boost and played much better after it woke them up. Games like last night where the team was flat against the Isles is a perfect example of why adding a scrappy player like a Tim Jackman or Prust would be perfect for this team to wake the skill up and keep going. I know the whole momentum aspect of fighting is not accepted around here by a lot of people, but now that it was quantified and studied has anyone changed their stance on replacing redundancy in the bottom 6 for a guy who could provide this type of spark on a consistent basis?

This team was definitely the toughest its been post lockout in 2008, not the toughest in the league but had the personnel to handle rough stuff when push came to shove pretty easily. This team is definitely softer than that team was, I dont know how you could think any different.. And what? You disagree that Commodore is the only one who will willingly defend a teammate? Abdelkader and Ericcson are capable but mostly unwilling to stick up for guys, Commodore (probably to hold down a job)will be the first one into scrums and ready to defend a teammate, since hes a 6th dman he doesnt get played much however. As for Howard getting bumped, do you watch the games? There was a point where he got hit like 3 games in a row and it led him to basically call the team out in the media. If you dont want to take that as evidence as him getting hit a lot then thats fine, but if a goalie is hit enough to complain to the press than I'm pretty sure hes getting bumped more than he is comfortable with. Even if he isnt getting bumped MORE than other goalies in the league, if he is getting bumped more than he is comfortable with the team should listen to him and go after someone for doing it. Just to show the team has their vezina level goalies back. As for my argument having no evidence, you seem to think they can win with this current lineup with no evidence at all. At least I can say the wings have never won a cup without a lineup tougher then the current lineup now. It may not be causation but I'm willing to bet that it helps quite a bit for a team to have that balance. Eaves may be as effective as Draper was in 08, but with the way he was playing earlier and the way he and Miller both played the last playoffs, they are definitely no Draper or Maltby in my eyes. They also didnt provide his veteran presence or faceoff ability, even if tthey were as good as he was in the regular season. As for that last bit, it might be a bit of remembering fondly, but I'm sitting here trying to remember a team with a bottom 6 as soft as the wings (not to mention top 6 really) winning the cup. And now that I think about it, there has NEVER been a team that has won the cup with a bottom 6 this soft. Now there is a first for everything and sure MAYBE this team could pull it off, but to say I'm the one lacking evidence is pretty pathetic considering its never been proven a team built like the wings can win a cup. If you want to think so, go ahead. Ill happily be proven wrong but I just dont see it

They actually pulled their heads outta their asses and played at the end. That doesnt always happen though and they definitely lucked out, where was that against the isles the next game?

The lack of fighting debates has just exploded recently since everyones been holding it in haha

Ill give it a try since youre trying to act like anyone who likes tough hockey cant use rational. First of all, there are a few (not a tonne) that think that adding a fighter would really hinder the team. I'm here nor there, not really a fan of bringing in a Colton Orr 3 minute a night player personally, I wont speak for the ones that are. There are also a large amount that are ridiculously attached to the current team for whatever reason and think that a team that has went out second round 2 years in a row now doesnt need any changes. In the playoffs both years Miller and Eaves never ramped it up, they simply arent warriors out there like we've had in the past. There are also a lot of people who may not think that it would really hurt to add a Tim Jackman/Matt Martin/Prust/Clarkson or whoever but they also say it would have no real impact and thats where I think they are wrong. Some people simply dont see it as a real part of the game with a real impact, I would say anyone who has played at an even somewhat high level would disagree (Babcock for example). Whereas guys like me, argue with people who say Drew Miller has as much impact on a game as these guys, which I simply think isnt true, a lot of people will read a stat sheet and see 5 or 6 more points and say that hes the best option out there. Detroit has never been the toughest team when they were winning, but they were always the most balanced which this team lacks right now. Back in the late 90s, they never had the most fights but always had the personnel that when the going got tough, they could handle that area of the game pretty easily, even if they werent fighting they were playing a much more physical brand of hockey. Despite what Kipwinger will say, back then Maltby was a pretty physical guy and a premiere pest in the league, Mccarty was always tough, Kocur could handle anyone and the top 6 had Shanny. That team could handle brawls like they had with the Avs and still score goals. They could step up for their team and take on those situations and coming out ahead afterwards. Even in 2008, a third line of Drake Draper Cleary is pretty physical (Drake was a machine in the playoffs) and rookie Helm with no responsibility except to run around full tilt and smash guys. Having balance is what matters, the wings can score goals now but can they wear down a defense? I sure dont think so, do they have a guy willing to spark the team with a big hit or fight consistently every night because he has a mean streak? Nope. All Detroits cup teams had a couple guys like that, this team is lacking. Those cup winning teams would never let their goalie do the fighting for themselves, unless it was against Roy. This team now had Howard donig it every other night it seemed. When a goalie is putting together a Vezina like season, there is no way he should be getting hit, its called team chemistry. If your goalie jumps a guy, you drop your mitts grab the guy and pound him, even if you were the one that pushed him into the goalie and know the goalie was in the wrong? WHy? Because hes your goalie and you stick up for him This team doesnt do that, guys like Miller skate around show a glimpse of skill every now and then, same with Eaves but do nothing that great. They "PK", meanwhile our PK isnt that great. I'm sick of seeing a dead team have noone that can spark it when the skill isnt working, I'm sick of seeing Howard fight his own battles and I'm sick of having Commodore being the only one who will go to the aid of a teammate. Hopefully something like Moen for Miller at the deadline can happen and at least itll be a step in the right direction

I could find one but it would take a while and I'm not really too concerned about it, most people will remember it I think. Basically said Nill had seen Biggs play lots and that they liked him. Also isnt the argument around here usually that its impossible to find a person who can play a regular shift and fight? The wings tend to draft North Americans with size and grit with their first picks lately, I'm sure Tom Wilson will be on the radar

Abdelkader sparked them in that game against Vancouver when they were playing very flat, explain that one...

Nope teams with a guy who can and is willing to go out and get in a fight when the team is playing poorly have a much greater chance of receiving a momentum boost when they are playing poorly because its shown that fighting can boost momentum... Dont gotta try to twist it because all of a sudden there are facts that go with what you always refused to believe feel it bud Yeah but it shows a MUCH bigger difference when a team is playing poorly in increased momentum. In a 2-2 game in the tird period, noone is going to want a redwing to go out there and start a fight and risk losing momentum, but it would be very useful in a game like last nights is what this article is saying