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A Stanley cup defending team should have more then one energy player up front. Helm is my favourite player on the team after Cleary so no he isn't chopped liver. Having one guy who has barely any experience (not a knock on Helm just a point) should not be your only energy guy. They don't have to be fighters but bringing some meat and potatoes type player into our bottom lines can only improve our team.

Okay don't say Kopecky would make big hits. Thats what he was supposed to do but not what he did. Helm makes big hits, same with Stuart and Kronwall. Bertuzzi is a freight train but Ericcson and Lilja aren't really big hitters. They're tough and will fight actually but don't do alot of huge hits. Do we really want our number 3 and 4 defenseman out there being the ones running around for hits trying to swing momentum or we could put someone in the lineup who can hammer guys and hits to hurt. I'm not saying cheap but a guy who makes clean hits and hopes the opposition doesn't get up after. I want a true mean hockey player, guys like Stu and Kronner aren't really that mean. That 4th line roster spot that has someone useless at goal scoring in it anyways should have someone who can hit and fight in it? What can that hurt homestly if the other guy doesn't score or anything?

The wings toughness last year wasn't the kind that swung momentum. I'll agree they were tough, no doubt about it. You were wrong in thinking I would argue an enforcer on the bench would stop that spear in the nuts but if there was one and that guy pounded the crap out of Sharp I bet he wouldn't do it again. Enforcers stop little s***heads like him from acting tough like that. But when our scoring dried up ad guys like Kopecky on the 4th line weren't picking up the slack a tough guy inserted in his position could've made a big hit or had a fight and swung the momentum and got us scoring again. (and by toughguy I mean someone willing and capable not a goon)

You don't have to preach to me man I guarantee I've played more hockey in my lifetime then you have and know a goal is more important. But what happens when your top lines get complacent like this years finals? A big hit or a fight could light a fire under their ass and make them start scoring again. How about when you have a gritty player that takes out an opposing teams top player with a big hit and all of a sudden their scoring is gone? Your chances just increased to win that game. I'm not asking for Detroit to play like Anaheim but a little grit and toughness wouldn't hurt them and I don't think anyone here can honestly say they think toughness and grit can really give the team a lower chance of winning.

I liked Hudler. You need guys like him on a team to win. You know goal scorers, oh wait of course you know what they are because you think a team needs to dress all 12 forward spots with them to win a game. I think a team needs balance. Are the wings good now? Hell ya and I love every second of it. Could they improve? Yes, no one is perfect and the only area the wings could improve is the toughness department. How are you so sure that if they didn't add some toughg rinders they wouldn't be an even better team? I know what Downey did was against the rules but in the playoffs thats what guys like him should be doing. He shouldn't get hated here for it. Doing stuff like that can help your team win a game. This is a serious question? Were you alive in the 90's and early 2000's for that matter even when the wings dynasty began? Or are you a band wagon fan that started watching the wings after the lockout and didn't see what they played like back before that?

Thats the problem with you toughness haters. You think the game is all about scoring. If they don't put up points they don't belong on the team. Momentum could've made them play better, I don't wanna start that old argument again but big hits and fights can swimg momentum. And don't pretend you like fighters and tough hockey, that was probably the 3rd best joke I heard today.

Chose the right time to hang up the skates for good. Got his life back on track and got a cup out of the deal. 25 was always my favourite when he played (pre lockout)

Well no s***. I meant if the tough team won as much as the classy team who wouldn't rather have the tough image then the classy, use our PP as the enforcer image?

Man Wings fans have gone soft just like the team. Its hockey people goalies get ran especially in a playoff blowout game. It isn't all about class and being nice. Anyone who doesn't like what Downey has done for this team and Grand Rapids has got to be crazy.

I play for 2 teams. My minor hockey team and highschool team. Our highschool won the championship last year and I was on the first PP doing mostly homer's job. I play rep in midget. I'm not sure if other countries have rep teams but the people from Canada here shuold know what I mean.

People who are upset that the wings added someone who is in their opinion a goon are delusional if they care about the public image of their team. Its hockey for god's sake, they don't have to all be classy byng nominees. Having that a team that is all tougher players is better then an image of a bunch of classy, soft players.

I think its funny reading this thread and seeing some of the people who in enforcer threads talk about how we shouldn't quetion Holland or pick another team and so on. Well all you can just trust in Kenny and stop complaining because this was your exact argument. Trust Kenny if he doesn't want grit cheer for other teams blah blah blah. Well we signed Bert so you can go cheer for another team now if you don't trust Kenny

Ok before this turns into a toughness debate I hope to see some rational points in here. Staubitz is an RFA this year (still hasn't resigned as far as I know?) He's not huge and he's only 24. He can skate pretty well and throws his weight around big time. He can fight too but he's no heavyweight. He tuned Tootoo in last year. I wouldn't mind seeing Holland send an offer sheet this guys way for depth purposes this year in GR then in a year or 2 give him a spot on the big club. He's never been a goal scorer but he's not a goon either, he's a character player who sticks up for teammates, will hit and should develop well enough to play a regular shift. I know its unlikely to happen but what would people think if this signing did happen? He played Jr. C in my hometown thats why I'm bringing this up.

Bertuzzi is a tough player and huge. We can't have all Selke trophy winners on our team. He'll put up at least 40 points if he doesn't miss a good chunk of the season to injury so stop complaining.

And Draper doesn't bring the size, grit or weight that Bert does.

Thats fine if you want to find it offensive but theres really no cause for offense. In the area of toughness he is reffering to its obvious that men have the upper hand. You can be pissed at me if you want but theres a reason guys can't hit girls. Its a natural thing that guys are dominant physically over females. Its because of testosterone and different muscle make ups and all that good stuff. But don't be offended its just a fact of life. And don't worry this isn't the days of Gordie Howe I don't think anyone will call anyone Dorothy

No one is syaing he deserved a broken neck and ended career I don't think. Everyone is saying he deserved a beating which he didn't want to take because he was a ***** and Bert attacked him. Yeah it sucks his neck got broken but he deserved to get punched just not a broken neck. Its notl ike Bertuzzi came up behind him grabbed his head and twisted.

Has anyone heard the number yet? Or is it still speculation thatit was for 1.5 mill?

Obviously you're not going to see this incident the way some of us do here. I mean it did have physical contact and some violence, of course you're not going to like it.

Why not? A cheap shot for a cheap shot. Bertuzzi just got unlucky with the damage he caused or for that matter the pile up after caused. Well you said it yourself cheap shots happen in hockey. What Bert did was a cheapshot so by your standards it happens I guess. Bertuzzi didn't mean to end his career he meant to show him what happens when you mess with a 50 goal scoring, captain of his team. Yeah the result was horrible but its not like he grabbed the guy by the neck and twisted or something, his intent wasn't to end his career.

It won't be as star studded but that might be a good thing. We'll have more players this year who can fill roles instead of stars playing all situations. A little bit more bite in the lineup with Helm, Ericcson and hopefully Bertuzzi and a whole lot more balance. This team should be more fun to watch I think. We'll be seeing a bit more physicallity this year and alittle less pretty stuff I would assume and go back to more of the basics.

Yeah because jumping into a guys head when he hasn't even played the puck and using your elbow is a clean hit. On top of the fact that this hit sidelined the 50 goal scoring captain of Bertuzzi's team, Moore was running around the ice all year chirping and being a dirty little s***. He deserved to get his ass kicked, I'm not saying he got what he deserved because a broken neck is horrible. And yeah the concussion Naslund got was because of that primary contact made to his hip. Its fine if you don't want a big guy out there on our team who can play the game and play physical but don't try to make him sound like some horrible person because he did what he should've done and things didn't work out quite like he thought they would.

And honestly if Moore would have backed up his actions like he should've it wouldn't have happened. He's pretty tough when he's running Swdeish superstars in the head but when that swedes 6'2 linemate doesn't like it Moore is running his mouth and for the bench. Bertuzzi did what he should've sticking up for his team, just the way it turned out was a freak accident.

Yeah I've only seen Kronwall get challenged a couple times and really they weren't invites to fight they were kind of he didn't have a chance to oblige. Byfuglien after the hit on Havlat and I remember him getting swarmed against Nashville by some guys after a big hit on the way to the cup. After that hit on Umberger this year I can't beleive anyone even looked twice at Stuart. Talk about laying over and dying for Columbus.

Especially a kid that plays the style he does. He's one of the biggest hitters out there but his gloves are cemented on. Cleary has shown he can go but he never did either when he was a 3rd line guy. After the jaw though I don't expect it out of him now. Its too bad about Stuart, he had 3 fights one season. I don't expect guys like Cleary and Stuart to fight often but tough Canadian boys should be able to answer the bell everynow and then.