PavelValerievichDatsyuk

Last year they were pushing for a second line of Franzen-Weiss-Alfie. This combo never worked at all. That was probably partly due to Weiss's injury, but they just never showed any chemistry. It still seems like a likely scenario so hopefully they can gel. Franzen and Weiss, at least, will surely see some time together.

Cleary was a healthy scratch last year despite our injury problems. It would happen again this year if he's bad. Last year he was given a pretty long leash, though, and played pretty long after he'd proven ineffective. Hopefully, they'll take a few yards of that leash this year.

I agree with you on Z-D-N. It's just too much of similar ingredients. Everyone should remember that, though Nyquist played great with Z, He really didn't gel with Dats. There was a bunch of articles about how people thought Nyquist was deferring to Dats. So if we want Nyquist with Z, that means we split up the euro twins and they play with Weiss which might work (could help out Weiss). Or Z plays center, but we have many centers that it would probably push Weiss or Sheahan to an unnatural position which I think doesn't play to their strengths. I disagree with number9 that Nyquist NEEDS to play with Z. He played great with others and I think he showed last year that he excelled when he was the one driving the play. Him with Weiss and Franzen is fine and allows other players to be where they should be.

The Flamingos The Siegels (In honor of Bugsy) The One Eyed Jacks Bettman's Folly #2, or 3 or...

I did think it was weird that they kept having the awards show there...

Actually, you said: "The Wings don't have the guys that other teams want, no matter how rosy we make our prospects sound. We have a ton of depth- and role-guys, but not the excess of blue-chip prospects teams in rebuild mode want in return and it becomes easier and easier for teams to turn down a trade with Wings that revolves around Johan Franzen and Riley Sheahan for a top-tier guy..." The bolded part is a very clear opinion and I responded to that. I listed examples of players that it was reported that other teams definitely wanted and asked about. I didn't take anything out of context. The part where you wrote after: "but not the excess of blue-chip prospects teams in rebuild mode want in return" Is a grammatical jumble (also, why are we only trading with teams on the rebuild?). If you meant to say that the wings have a couple blue chip prospects, but not enough to spare, that kind of goes against the bolded part. But, if that what you meant, I still disagree. Z-D-Franzen Nyquist-Weiss-Mantha Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco Miller-Helm-Abby That's us up front in 2015 and probably until 2017 baring any trades or UFA pick ups (Glendening for Miller if we let him go after his contract, Helm and Abby will likely be resigned after 2015-16). That makes Pukinnen at least an excess high prospects, There's no place for Andreas Athanasiou, Larkin, or Janmark until at least 3 years (if Datsyuk retires).They're really good prospects and that might make them considered excess blue chips. It is a hard argument, though, because there is no real definition of blue chip and we don't know fully what other teams are asking for. I think its at least safe to say that people would want our 15th over all pick, Larkin. On defence, it's a much easier argument. We have 7 roster players signed. DD, BIg E, Smith and Kronwall seem to be solid for the longer term. We have 5 high prospects (Marchenko, Sproul, Oulette, Backman, Jansen). Some can and will be traded or will make roster players expendable.

I agree with number9 and LeftWinger - no question Stevie Y and Feds. I agree that the supporting crew is something to consider. Also, I'm going to play Captain obvious and point out that those comparison are not fully fair because Dats and Z aren't done yet. I could see a few more top 10 seasons for points or assists for both of those 2. maybe Dats wins a Selke or 2. Zetterberg could win a Messier... Not that that would make them equal, but it should be considered.

http://kuklaskorner.com/tmr/comments/tsns-westhead-bertuzzi-moore-settlement-reached-but-not-completely-conclude settlement reached, no trial No trial is a really good thing for bert and all of hockey, I think

The Wings absolutely have blue chip pieces that teams want to trade for. There were many reports over the summer of other teams calling and inquiring about Mantha, Nyquist and Tatar. We could get something very good for them. But, with the potential of those players, management has decided that it would be better in the long run to keep them. I for one support that because I really those 3 and none of the player mentioned in possible trades have seemed to be a perfect, no risk fit for us (Edler, Myers, etc...). Besides I like the look of our D prospects.

I think its one thing to idly talk about tanking, but I think if we ever had a season where we tanked I think everyone be talking quite differently. I think the reaction would be: he has destroyed this proud organization, tarnished Illitch's legacy, wasted years of D and Z's career, etc. If we even missed the playoffs there would a big cry for Holland to be fired. Other effects of tanking: Babcock would probably leave for a team trying to win. Some players would probably ask for a trade. If you're complaining about UFAs not coming now, think about what it would be like if we finished last in the East. So, I know a high prospect would be attractive, but would lose so much in the process and be much farther from winning than we are now. Would it really set us up to win for a while? maybe if we got McDavid, but we would have to shed half the team to be that bad. We've lucked out and got at least one player that should have been a top pick in Mantha. I say luck, but Holland gets credit for discounting all of Mantha's detractors and recognizing a player open to bettering himself. Dekeyser choosing us was like a free 1st rounder. If you compare what we've added to the team in the way prospects to what Buffalo has by their recent tanking, and consider that we've kept our stars, does it really look like an attractive option?

???????? Downey only played in Detroit one year (and one in GR). Loyalty goes to those have been around a while were an important part of your team at some point. Draper and Dmac were shown great loyalty. McCarty's chance to come back in 07-09 was precisely due this loyalty. Few other organizations would have given that chance of a comeback to a 35+ character player. Draper played 17 years for the same team and currently works for said team. How many 4th line centers can say that? You must see the loyalty in that. He was kind of forced into retirement, but he was 39 and it was pretty clear he was done. He was still offered a tryout contract.

Pulkinnen doesn't play center. Andreas Athanasiaou, however does. We've got really good depth at center right now: Datsyuk, Weiss, Sheahan, Helm, Glendening, Andersson. No new centers are going to make the team for a number of years, but we've got two really good C prospects anyway: AA and Larkin. We also have a few years to draft and develop other guys before they're needed. I'd say that's a pretty situation to be in. Alfie and Weiss definitely were top UFA. We're rebuilding and we still attracted top UFAs. Your reasons for discounting Alfie's reasons for coming here are very similar to the reasons that Hossa came here. Edit: I know somebody is going to my statement: "We've got really good depth at center" and say: Weiss is a big question mark. To that I say, if Weiss is a bust (and that seems unlikely) put Z as second line center. I don't really know why the team became so obsessed with playing D and Z together the past two years. Something like this would fill in that possibility. Franzen-Dats-Mantha Alfie-Z-Nyquist Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco Miller-Helm-Abby Glendening You could shuffle around wingers, but my point is even without Weiss I feel good about our forwards. Or just shuffle all the centers up and maybe Sheahan or Helm becomes a 2nd line center. I really don't think that's outside the realm of possibilities and it would get Helm off the 4th line where I think he is wasted. Now I've really gone off, but our situation at forward really excites me (as long as I don't mention Cleary...Damn, I did it!).

Alfie is a future hall of famer. Even at 40 he scored 18 goals and 49pts in 68 games. A player who hasn't played a game in the NHL and had 1 really good year in college hockey is better than him? That's a big leap of faith to me.

Haha, okay. Often people's opinions on this board seem over the top so maybe my filter has been messed up. Or maybe it's just been a very long off season and I just want to debate something remotely to do with hockey........ anything..... oh, please come back, hockey! Otherwise, I'll have to start talking about politics or world events and that's a good way to get depressed.

Okay, I think I figured out what you're saying. I think you have a number of points - none of which i was helping you prove. I think you're saying that Bert, Sammy, and Cleary getting injured was a good thing because it took them out of the lineup. To me that's a complicated "what if." For one thing, If those three weren't injured maybe they would've been effective players. To me, Cleary has only been bad the last 2 years and that definitely has something to to with his knee problems. I think Bert was a positive asset until last 2 years and that probably owes to his missing almost all of 12-13 with injuries. If Sammy came here, wasn't injured and played the way he did in Van and FLA he wouldn't have received as many death threats from LGW members. In the 1st quoted section you seem to extend this to say: without injuries to knocked these 3 out we could have been a worse team in the past 5 years due to their collective presence. Even if I allow the idea that that is a positive, you're talking about the effect of injuries in general so the loses of Helm Z, etc would definitely counteract those "positives" and surely you wouldn't end up with a "net positive." Also, you say that injuries didn't "noticeably impact us (for the worse) the four post-seasons before that." (last year). I really disagree with that. 2 years ago when we were a goal away from advancing past the Hawks, I think it's very debatable whether a healthy Helm and Dekeyser could have pushed us over the edge. Either way, not having those 2 had a noticeably negative impact on the team in my opinion. As for your "edit:" statement, where you say that injuries were a positive thing even last year because they allowed Nyquist, Jurco, Sheahan to get in the lineup. This goes against your own statement that: "You don't get to pick and choose the effect that injuries have. Gotta take the bad with the good." The injuries to D,Z, Weiss etc. clearly counteract the positive of getting Nyquist,Jurco and the Teletubby. As a sidenote: Sammy, Eaves, Tootoo were put in the AHL. Cleary, Bert were healthy scratches at times. All the things could have allowed Nyquist to be on the team. I realize that some of these moves were done after and possibly because of Nyquist's move up to the NHL, but there were many possible ways to get Nyquist on the team and I think he's there by Christmas even without injuries. As for Jurco, Sheahan and how much they play, that's a different story.

about 120 pounds on your shoulders? I hope he can handle that. Keeping balance is the difficult part and does ad a little strain, but not that much. Me and my friends used to have pool wars where put our girlfriends on our shoulders and attack each other. I'm kind of a wuss, but it was not difficult. Look if you go to festivals. There's always many skinny white dudes with a girls on their shoulders.

I think this is pretty flawed thinking. First of all, not having Dats, Z, Helm, Weiss, and Franzen hurt us big time and without considering anything else, I think having them makes us a much better team and I think that trumps all else. As for the other players you mentioned: Bertuzzi, Sammy, and Cleary were all healthy scratches and played themselves out of there roles. White was benched even when we had injuries in favour of Kindl (when he was good 2 years ago). Emmerton played as much as he did because of injuries. He would have been sent down if we were healthy. These players would not have played more if others weren't injured. For those that were injured - If they played more because they themselves weren't injured than they would have not been dealing with injuries and would have helped us out more. Having Colaiacovo, Eaves, and Gustavsson not injured and playing more would have helped us, I think. As for the players that would have played less: I love Mrazek, but he did not exactly run away with the opportunity given this year. I was at the game against the Islanders before Christmas where we got blown away and he looked pretty shaky. If Gustavsson were to take Mrazek's games this past year I don't think that makes us a worse team. Gus got it done somehow this year Andersson playing less this past season wouldn't have been a bad thing and I think he played himself off the team for the coming season. That leaves Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco, and Glendening. I think healthy Eaves is better than Glendening (maybe not in the future, but we're talking about the past couple seasons). If you consider that Tatar and Nyquist's extra time was due to the absence of Dats and Z I don't think many would argue that having the euro twins would've made us better. Sheahan's time was due to Weiss' absence - Weiss is supposed to be pretty good so if he was what everyone says he can be that would have made us better. Jurco time comes in place of some winger: Franzen, Alfie? I feel like I don't want to touch that debate, but look at the stats for those players. So, my mind is not blown and I think your argument is quite a stretch. While I don't believe injuries made us better, they do make us better in the future because Glendening, Jurco, Nyquist, Tats, and Sheahan all got experience and claimed spots on the team. This, of course, would be dependant on whether Dats, Weiss, Z, Helm and Franzen can stay healthy

Do you guys really think that this is more strenuous on the back than what these guys do in the gym?

I agreed with everything you said except the bolded part. I've heard other people say this as well. I don't understand why anyone thinks it's a contradiction to build from the draft and try to sign UFAs. I think this belief is felt by many in the "confused about the direction of this team" thread. But why would they not go after these players? I won't cost draft picks so it doesn't compromise the idea of building from the draft. It's not a rebuild where the team is trying to putting out a bad roster to ensure a high draft pick - They're trying to put out the best possible roster and just keep the draft pick we get and work with those. These UFA signings would take away roster spots from young player (so you can argue against the Cleary, Quincey signings) but a player like Suter, Parise, etc. would be better than almost all prospects now and in the future so they would certainly help the team any way you look at it. Why would Holland be a hypocrite?

? Tampa made a lot of changes

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=725369 Review what happened in our division. My opinion: Boston, Senators: Definitely worse Panthers, Sabres: Will still be competing for McDavid Leafs: Got Frattin, Robidas and 2 KHL players and dumped 7 regulars - Who knows. Habs, Tampa: Probably a bit better, but nothing to blow you away, I don't think. Some will say Tampa's additions of Stralman and Garrison makes them a lot better, but I think the St. Louis-Callahan trade counteracts that improvement somewhat. Who do you include "most teams got better"? We did nothing, but health improvements and youth developing can go a long way toward improvement.

We should cement this relationship and name the new arena Octopus's Garden! Maybe Ringo can be the corporate sponsor.

Well, Weiss was never healthy last year so he can be thought of a new asset. Without considering him, though, I don't think there was ever a time last year when vets were healthy (Z, Dats, Franzen, Helm) and the kids (Nyquist, Tats, Jurco, Sheahan) were on the team. That combination, Weiss playing realgud, and if Howard returns to form, then I really think this is a very different team. Lots of ifs, but I'm pretty optimistic. Bolts and Pens also have uncertainty as well: Pens: How will they play under a new coach? How will their defence be with Niskanen and Orpik being replaced by erhoff? How much will the loss of James Neil be felt? Bolts: What will it be like without St. Louis for a whole season? Will Bishop be that good again? - he did have wrist surgery during this offseason. Will Stralman and Wideman fix their defence problems? (alright so the last question is almost certainly yes)

That's not true. Last year we were so close to the cap that we had to do all kinds of financial acrobatics to make it work. Great to sign Tatar! Lead the Griffins to the Calder Cup and won the trophy for playoff MVP. scores 19 goals in 73 games in his first full season with the wings. I think the money is fine when you think of all that

Del Zotto is also 24! Most of our players have barely seen the NHL by that age and he's played 5 years. I think that things point to him turning things around and he could be a steal for someone. Just needs some good guidance. As a side note, I think he's a good example of what can happen to a player when they don't play at least their first year in the AHL.