kipwinger

I know, that's why I'm suggesting the Wings should trade for him and make him a 2C. Suter and a high 2nd seems pretty fair to me. They'd essentially be getting a 3C who's the same age, much better defensively, a little worse offensively (but not by THAT much), and a pretty valuable pick. If anything I'm undervaluing Gavrikov, who's probably worth more than Zadina and McIsaac but he doesn't really have a long track record and Zadina/McIsaac have some upside and are cost controlled for like 80 more years.

Why is he untouchable? He's played primarily on the 3rd and 4th lines this season, is not well liked by the well liked coach, is not a team leader (Like Boone Jenner, who is ahead of him on the depth chart), and is on a rebuilding team that just drafted Kent Johnson and Cole Sillinger to play center as well, and Columbus was openly shopping him prior to the deadline.

Obvious troll is obvious. But I'll play along: 1. You: "He's like Franzen, that won't be transferable". Reality: Franzen was an awesome NHL player who was indispensable to two Cup runs and one Cup win. 2. You: "If he was good he'd be up by now". Also you: "It took Bertuzzi 5 years" to develop. 3. You: "The NHL is about going top corner and 5 hole shots". Reality: Every top scorer in the NHL has more assists than goals. 4. You: Berggren is a soft floater who needs to lift weights. Also you: Vrana has transferable skills at the NHL level. 5. You: "Berggren and his 171 lbs is gonna get steam rolled." Reality: Berggren is 5'11, 195 lbs. https://griffinshockey.com/team/roster/jonatan-berggren 6. You: Veleno gets is, he lifted weights and got stronger. Reality: Berggren (who is the same age as Veleno) added 25 lbs of muscle since he was drafted.

In other prospect news, Rogle is currently riding William Wallinder through the SHL playoffs. He's been an absolute horse, playing 20+ minutes a night of solid defensive hockey. Tasked with shutting down the other teams' top lines. I still don't see too much offensive upside at the NHL level, but if he can turn into a Matthias Ekholm/Danny Dekeyser type who can score 25-30 points at even strength and play really good defense for 20 mins a night I'm going to be pumped.

Step 1: Trade Suter, Zadina, McIsaac, and a 2nd to Columbus for Jack Roslovic and Vladislav Gavrikov Step 2: Move Ras to the wing permanently. Step 3: Sign Brett Kulak Step 4: Ice this lineup Ras-Larkin-Vrana Bert-Roslovic-Raymond Berggren-Veleno-Sodorblom Sundqvist-Stephens-Erne Smith Gavrikov-Seider Kulak-Hronek Edvinsson-Lindstrom Oesterle

Agreed, but it's not just that Berggren scores. It's HOW he scores. His skills are transferable. We wouldn't be having this discussion if we were talking about Martin Frk (for example) because he's got all the same problems as Zadina despite how good he is in the AHL. But we're talking about a totally different type of offensive player. Berggren has A+ skating, passing, vision, and smarts. Zadina has none of those things. Zadina had a good shot at lower levels but it's clear he can't consistently beat NHL goalies with it. And he doesn't really bring much else to the table.

That was a typo I corrected, it was 4 in 16. As far as the second part of your post, I'd say a few things: Zadina probably would be tearing it up in the AHL. So what? Does that mean he's a good NHL scorer, or that Berggren won't be? Zadina was a better AHL scorer than Bertuzzi, and? Berggren will score more in the NHL than Zadina for a few reasons. One, he doesn't rely on his shot for points. He's a playmaker, and when he moves to the NHL he'll be passing to better shooters. Zadina, on the other hand has zilch for primary assists. Two, he's a MUCH better skater which (combined with his passing) should help him score more in transition than Zadina does. Third, Zadina sucks on the powerplay. He's a one trick pony (one timer off the flank), and that trick doesn't work in the NHL because his shot isn't very good. Berggren is a nightmare on the powerplay because his edgework is sick as f*** and his passing is elite. I don't care about Zadina, personally I'm blown away that a guy who's done SO LITTLE gets so much discussion from this fan base. Conversely I'm excited about Berggren because he's a lot of things Zadina isn't. But he will DEFINITELY score more, you can mark that down.

*Scans information* So you’re telling me he has 13 multi point games as an AHL rookie getting his first taste of North American hockey? Including 4 multipoint efforts in his last 16 games (17 points in that span)? All while leading the Griffins in scoring? Good. But in all seriousness, it’s not like I think the guy is the next Johnny Gaudreau or anything like that. I’ve elsewhere described him as an Ales Hemsky or Val Filppula type. But given that most 2nd rounders never pan out that’s a huge win for the Wings rebuild.

Berggren on the board again tonight. This is becoming a nightly thing. Edit: Just kidding...that's two points for Berggren tonight. And THAT is becoming a nightly thing.

I'm not sure "dumb" is the way to describe it. David Poile has had a ton of success getting good players under great contracts in Nashville doing exactly what you're talking about. I think from my point of view you'd just want to see some reason for optimism from Zadina before you pulled the trigger. So far there hasn't been any. Maybe if he starts scoring a bit under a new coach or something.

All of my feelings about Zadina aside, wouldn't that just be a sign (by both parties) that they'd given up on him ever being much better. Like, I don't know that I want a 6OA pick with (supposedly) loads of talent taking a contract which basically screams "I'm not willing to bet on myself". F*ck that. Not to mention the fact that giving a guy who does nothing 3 million per year completely screws up your salary structure. If you have Zadina doing nothing for 3 million then what do you pay for guys like Gagner next time you sign one? Frankly, whether or not the team keeps him (there are arguments both ways) they need to stop emphasizing "getting Zadina going". Guys like Ras, Namestnikov, Gagner, Veleno, etc. would kill for half the opportunity Zadina was given this year in an effort to "get him going". The only difference is that they earned it and he didn't. You think Gagner (going into UFA status) wouldn't have appreciated loads of powerplay time and a spot riding shotgun with Larkin, Bert, Raymond, or Vrana? And is there any doubt he'd have performed better than Zadina in those roles? Zadina's been gifted enough. We're going on three straight seasons of him not doing jack sh*t. Let him earn his next contract or trade him.

Ive always thought these types of categorizations are not very useful anyway. Florida currently has a 70 point player on the 3rd line wing. Pittsburgh won a Cup with Kessel on the 3rd line wing. Meanwhile Mike Hoffman has played his whole career as a top six wing despite really only being able to score on the powerplay, and getting absolutely caved in every other facet of the game. For the most part where you play in the lineup doesn't say a whole lot about your skill level or contributions to the team. I always laugh when people trip over themselves to explain why guys like Draisaitl and Malkin are not 2Cs despite the fact that they center the 2nd line. It's fully possible that your 2nd and 3rd line guys might actually be better than your first line guys, or vice versa. NHL coaches aren't dumb, they don't put their five best players on the top line and the top defensive pair. Elmer Sodorblom might well play on the 3rd line, but I almost guarantee he'll score 20-30 goals a season from that position. His shot's too good (I'd argue it's currently about the 3rd-4th best in the organization), his puck protection is good good, his skating is too good (at that size). He's also shown he can produce a lot in limited minutes at 5 on 5. This is very much NOT Justin Abdelkader, this is a guy who was top ten in goal scoring (as a 20 year old) in one of the hardest leagues in the world. Wherever the coach puts him in the lineup he's going to produce.

Big Ras looking strong so far. Pius Suter is a very good penalty killer

I'm taking Friedman with a grain of salt here. Everybody was saying the same exact stuff about New York a couple of years ago, then they traded for Trouba, signed Panarin, and got a little draft luck and now their rebuild is over before it started. Detroit already got the draft luck. In three years we got two top defensemen, a budding elite offensive winger, and a future starting goalie to go with a higher end "core" of guys like Larkin, Vrana, and Bert. We land one top free agent, make one impact trade, and nobody will be taking about a rebuild anymore.

Craig Button's Top NHL Affiliated Prospects List: Edvinsson #3 Cossa #13 FWIW Button had Seider at #1 and Raymond at #3 a year ago, so anecdotally it seems like he knows what he's talking about. There also seems to be some sort of age cutoff here, as guys like Berggren and Sodorblom didn't make the list despite playing very well in professional leagues this season.

When Yzerman drafted Edvinsson he said: “Once you are a solid defensive hockey team, you’re going to be competitive and you can win a lot of nights,” Yzerman said. “Over time, we’ll be able to add to the offense.” I think that really tells you all you need to know about the direction of the next coach. Of the guys listed above: Larionov has minimal coaching experience, and has generally sucked when he's coached. He's also routinely discussed how the NHL is too defensive. Maurice has basically said he's not interested in coaching in the immediate future. Quenneville is in purgatory. Gronborg is an unknown who's never coached high level North American hockey. Only Lane Lambert has A) a defensive mindset, B) a strong track record in North America, C) is actually available for an NHL head coaching job. He's your next coach. Book it.

I listened to Gronborg on the "Winged Wheel Podcast" and he speaks better English that most people I know. Apparently went to college here and then coached in North America for more than 10 years at lower levels. Has a weirdly gravely voice that sounds nothing like a Euro typically sounds when speaking English. Edit:

I think there are a couple of pretty important differences between the two. Nyquist played his first full season in GR after playing 3 seasons of North American hockey at Maine, and being relatively healthy. He also walked onto a Calder Cup caliber team that was loaded with NHL prospects. Berggren missed almost two full years of development post NHL-draft, played one healthy (and productive) season in Sweden where he was a top player in a top league (something Nyquist has never done at any age), and then came to play his first year in North America and joined an absolutely terrible GR team loaded with journeyman AHLers. I'd agree that there are some similarities in their games, but I'd argue that Nyquist is probably toward the lower end of what Berggren will be. I'd also argue that if Berggren became a 50-55 point NHLer, but about 35-40 of those points were assists he'd still be a SUPER valuable player. Some people compare Berggren to Viktor Arvidsson, which I think is probably a bit generous in terms of goal scoring. He reminds me a lot of Ales Hemsky, or like Val Filppula when he played on the wing.

Did Nyquist start sucking all of a sudden? I’d be thrilled if Berggren was at least that good. Would make him miles better than the two guys we picked before him that year.

Mazur, Buium, and Tuomisto are National Champions. These guys are the future, only guys in Detroit’s system that have ever won anything. Winners. Especially Mazur (pictured on the far right). Look at that Michigan man.

Erne ern-ing his money on that Gagner goal. Took the defense totally out of the play. Also, loving Mitchell Stephens back. Forgot how awesome he is.

Berggren with a measly three points already today.

I'm not really sure that having 12 better forwards is the correct way to evaluate Zadina (or anyone else for that matter). He's not competing with Dylan Larkin for the 1C spot, nor with Mitchell Stephens for the 4C spot. In fact, most people don't even want him competing with guys for a 4th line winger spot (considering ppl lost their minds when Blash had him on the 4th line). So basically, are there six better wingers on the team? Bert, Vrana, Raymond, and Fabbri are all notably better. That leaves two. So he needs to be better than all but one of Gagner, Sundqvist, Erne, Smith and whichever of Veleno, Stephens, or Rasmussen gets moved to the wing when everyone is healthy. Safe to say he can probably do that. But with guys like Berggren and Sodorblom knocking on the door it gets really tricky. Doubly so if they add people via FA (think Namestnikov-type guys here). At that point it's not so clear cut. It's not obvious that he'd be better than all but one of Rasmussen, Berggren, Sodorblom, and Namestnikov for instance. AND he has basically ZERO special teams value, which genuinely kills his value to the team. Reminds me a lot of Owen Tippett in that way, and look how tradeable that guy very quickly became. I'd say Zadina's days in Detroit have come to an end.

I love that Rasmussen is producing, its got to be great for his confidence. As you'll all recall, I predicted big things for him this year and that really hasn't happened so it's good to feel like I wasn't 100% in the weeds. But I'd like to see a few things vis-a-vis the big fella. First, the team (i.e. coach) needs to figure out a role for him that makes sense. They've previously said they want him to be a Jordan Staal-esque 3C, which he's never ever been, and he's put in some serious work trying to make that happen...to mixed results. His defense is actually pretty good, but his offense hasn't really shone through in that role the way a Staal's does. That's probably because Ras needs to be near the net to score, and in Blash's system the center plays the F3 position high (almost like a 3rd defenseman) so something's gotta give (and it's his scoring). If they intend to keep him in that role, then it's got to be as a 4C because he's just never going to score enough as a center (in that system) to be a 3C. The other option, obviously, is to make him a winger where he'll score more but you'll lose him as matchup center. Essentially, he can be Tom Wilson or he can be Martin Hanzal but not both. The 2nd thing the team needs regarding Ras is for him to squat about 600lbs. His lower body is crazy weak for his size and it limits his ability to really wear down the opposition (an obvious appeal for a 6'6 player). Anybody remember when he absolutely buried Hampus Lindholm on the forecheck the other day in Boston and then Lindholm left the game later with a lower body injury? Anybody think those things are unrelated? Me neither. Ras needs to do this every single game.

Business strategy for the Sharks. Trade all of those guys, 50% retained, to the Wild over the next two years.