kipwinger

You’re moving the goalposts. First you said Blash doesn’t develop players. Those guys both developed beyond almost anyone else drafted where they were. And they did so under Blash. Now you’re saying they don’t count because they “didn’t put it together” and they aren’t on the team. They both put it together just fine as I’ve already stated (more than anyone else drafted where they were). They aren’t on the team because neither gives a s*** and couldn’t be bothered to compete. This despite Blash repeatedly telling them exactly how to improve both privately and publicly. He also gave and took away ice time, and even scratched them when it got serious. He can’t MAKE them give a s***. What’s he supposed to do, play for them? And both are the EXACT SAME players elsewhere. Kinda like it’s not Blashill’s fault.

6/6: You asked who exceeded expectations. Mantha and Athansiou both did. Mantha is either the 2nd or 3rd best 20th overall pick in the last 20 years. Definitely behind Brent Burns and maybe Travis Zajac. Athanasiou was/is a regular, contributing, top 9 NHL forward despite being drafted in the 4th round. Neither are superstars, but both of them (like Jensen) turned out just about as good as one could expect given where they were drafted. So again, if Blash bears responsibility for guys like Mrazek, Sheahan, and Svech not panning out then he MORE than makes up for it by getting more out of the guys I mentioned than could reasonably be expected. OR (and this is my position) he really doesn't have much to do with guys Svech's failures or Jensen's successes. The first lost almost two full years of developmental time to serious injuries and probably still isn't NHL caliber, and the second plied his trade in the AHL until he was 26 before he was finally NHL ready and only then did he get called up and used in a depth role he could handle. One final thought: The Red Wings drafting and player development was absolutely abysmal under Holland. The ONLY top six forwards drafted and developed between Datsyuk/Zetterberg and Larkin/Mantha were Tatar and Nyquist (maybe Filppula or Hudler if you're being REALLY generous). So from 1999 to 2013 they drafted 2 top six talents. The ONLY top four defenseman they drafted and developed between Kronwall and Hronek? None. Not one. From 2000 to 2016 they developed ZERO top four defensemen. This was a systemic problem that had a lot to do with A) bad draft position, B) piss poor decisions by the GM on draft day, and C) a terrible development program and almost nothing to do with Blashill.

Okay, I'll play. But I have to deal with it in parts. 1. Larkin, Bertuzzi, Mantha, Nick Jensen, Hronek, and Athanasiou (off the top of my head). Partial credit for Tatar and Nyquist who he coached in the AHL and NHL. And quarter credit for Raymond and Seider, both of whom are outperforming expectations but it's a little too early to tell. 2. He doesn't "add" anyone to his roster. That's the GM's job. 3. That's called "coaching", which is his job. That's different than development, which denotes playing the right player in the right league against the right competition to ensure their long term success. 4. As I've said before, Larkin is very good. If you're giving Blashill credit for him being so then you're contradicting your own point. 5. Svech was only on the team because the roster was expanded because of the "taxi squad" and he was out of waiver. He only played because half the team was sick and/or injured. I'm sure Blashill would have preferred not to play him at all. He sucks. He won't even be in the NHL in another year (see: Frk, Martin).

Ok, I concede. Blashill bears some responsibility for Dylan Larkin being a very good player. You win.

Neat. The NHL isn't a developmental league and it's not Jeff Blashill's job to make sure prospects develop. It's the GM and the player development staff's job. Jeff Blashill is no more responsible for Svech's development than he is for all they players who have dramatically outperformed expectations since he's been the coach.

So he ranges from being an above average player to a considerably above average player and you think this is an indictment of Blashill? Nice try.

Still at a loss for why Svechnikov is being used as a measuring stick here? What does he have to do with anything at all?

Looks like a pretty consistent 60 plus points a year to me. So far in his career he’s had one down year. So what?

So he scores no less than a bunch of other guys who barely score? Glowing endorsement.

He just signed a 3 year contract extension at a pretty reasonable cap hit. He'd cost a fortune to acquire at this point.

I've never advocated dumping him. See my posts above. Also, he played almost ALL of last season with Larkin (until he got injured) because Bertuzzi was hurt. Even after Larkin's injury (and Vrana's acquisition) Zadina was still on the top line. I don't mind debating this with you, but it's not helping either of us if we don't get basic facts straight. I think I'd be happy if he looked capable of scoring 40 pts a season. Nevermind 60 pts. But based on his play so far I"m not at all confident he'll hit that mark in what is now his 3rd professional season.

I'm not sure I agree with this though. He was drafted to score, and he's not scoring. That's a problem. Darren Helm played good defense, worked his ass off, had good possession metrics (for most of his career) and couldn't score on the chances he generated too. Plenty of 4th line guys have good possession metrics actually. I think we all expect Zadina to be better than that. And if he isn't then I don't think we're really happy with his play. Or at least not as happy as we'd like to be. I'm genuinely not a Zadina hater. I think there are good aspects to his game. But I think he's in over his head on the 2nd line. Right now I'd probably switch him with Namestnikov.

Sure, I agree with that. Neither are so good that they couldn't be traded if they can help get a decent return. I'm really not desperate to get rid of either of them though. When this team is good again it's not going to be made up entirely of 25 year olds. Guys like Bert, Larkin, and Fabbri are going to be the 30 year old's who have as much value teaching guys how to be good pros as they do on the ice. Similarly the team isn't going to be made up entirely of point-per-game studs like Lucas Raymond either. You're going to need quality 3rd line guys who can chip in offense, play up the lineup in the event of injuries, and don't get torched on defense. Zadina (so fa) fits that bill. And if he improves? Great.

I don't think that line is all that good, at least not as a 2nd line. None of them have the production a good team would get out of a line averaging 15(ish) minutes a night. I think they'd be a decent 3rd line. As you've seen elsewhere, when I propose a 2nd line it's usually Veleno with Roslovic (placeholder for a new 2C) and Vrana.

A couple of points on this: 1. You don't win games with theoretical points. You win them with actual points. The production a guy SHOULD have is irrelevant if he doesn't turn it around at some point. We're all still waiting on that turn around with Zadina. 2. We had this same EXACT conversation with Mantha. His underlying numbers were great and all the analytics guys were positive he was due for a big breakout, year after year they predicted he'd be a 60-70 pts winger. He still has yet to score 50 NHL points in a season. Conclusion: You count production when it's on the board. And you won't win games with possession metrics. There are plenty of players who have good shot generation numbers who never score very much at all (Brendan Smith), and some who bad metrics who score a lot (Rasmus Ristolainen). I don't know which Zadina will be, but we need to be careful we don't confuse a guy who can't finish with a guy who's snake bitten. The longer Zadina goes without producing, the more it looks like the former and not the latter.

Larkin's a point per game player right now. Seems pretty consistent to me.

Yawn, this is boring. You all suck at debating. Just reject his premise (that the handling of Svech is indicative of Blashill’s quality as a coach) and then point out the numerous prospects that faired exactly the same under other coaches as they did under Blash and the numerous prospects that have flourished under Blash. All great coaches let one slip between the cracks now and again, Svech is at best and outlier and at worse a Martin Frk, either way he’s not a benchmark for anything.

Yup re:Hronek

I read this about Edvinsson recently. It was a translation of a Swedish article on Malik's blog (see:https://themalikreport.com/2021/11/08/roughly-translated-via-icehockeygifs-simon-edvinsson-speaks-with-rakapuckars-henrik-lehman) "He’s been praised by [teammate] Ryan Lasch, by most experts, and when I spoke with Dan Cleary, the Detroit Red Wings’ Assistant Director of Player Development last week, the NHL veteran said this with a smile about the successful young Swede: “Take the opportunity to enjoy him, there’s not a chance that he’ll be here for any longer than this season.”

Expecting a big night from Rasmussen tonight. Have to imagine getting that first one yesterday will pump him up a bit. 3-2 Red Wings. Goals from Ras, Suter, Bert.

I'm never quite sure if you're trolling or not, but I'll take this comment at face value. I agree we need another top center. I don't agree that tanking is the way to do it. First, tanking doesn't ensure you're going to get a top pick like Wright. Second, the last three Detroit drafts have shown that you don't need to pick 1st to get elite talent. Third, tanking DESTROYS your organizational culture. It takes a toll on your best players, ensuring they'll leave as soon as they can (Buffalo). It is HORRIBLE for young players' development (Edmonton). It drives down attendance, which drives down revenue, which makes owners less likely to sign big ticket contracts (Ottawa). If I'm going to leave something to chance I'd MUCH rather roll the dice hoping my scouting staff finds me a mid first round gem. Based on their body of work the last few years I'd prefer that to tanking.

Agreed. Yzerman has basically said as much, something along the lines of "if you make this a good defensive team you can add to the offense later". Sounds good, but I've seen a lot of teams over the years who were good enough on one side of the puck or the other but not good enough to win.

Well then can I interest you in Marco Kasper? An Austrian center currently playing for Rogle of the SHL? Very speedy, solid offensive numbers at all levels, decent size, but may need a little time to round out his 200 ft. game.

I'm fine with Leddy. He's an offensive d-man and he's over 30. He's going to have some gaffs. But he's a top four defender by just about any measure and I'm thrilled that we've at least got 3 of those on our team now.

Woof, last night was a stinker. I'll be looking to see if they tighten up in tonight's game.