kipwinger

Am I the only one who likes the guy? He's entertaining. Things have slowed WAY down around here the last couple years. He keeps sh*t stirred up. Love it.

Oops, didn't mean to derail this thread too. I just don't like to miss an opportunity to mention how s***ty the Ilitch family is. For all our sake, let's just let this one go.

This is the part that absolutely gets me. For YEARS people have reflexively said "The Ilitch family has done so much for Detroit". If I rolled my eyes any harder theyd fall out of my head. Almost all of the redevelopment downtown in Detroit is the product of Dan Gilbert, NOT the Ilitches. Rather than do anything at all for Detroit they've routinely fleeced the city/State to make themselves rich while doing almost nothing for downtown Detroit. Oh, and they don't bother paying their taxes either, which apparently, is par for the course amongst rich folks in America these days. F*ck them.

Good point. I definitely do sleep a little easier knowing that the arena I helped pay for, am being overcharged to enter, is both the product of public corruption AND is nice. I'm totally not bitter about that it at all lol.

Could be why the Ilitch's only finished about 1/3 (the taxpayer funded portion) of their promised arena development project. Well, that or they're lying crooks who never intended on finishing anything but the arena to begin with.

As opposed to ether players element players actually have a physical body that can be observed in space time. Or, in other words, element players are not poltergeists. Solid management decision here by Poile.

Larkin isn't a top 1C. Sure he fills that position, decently well, but we're not winning s*** with Dylan Larkin matching up against guys like McDavid and Point and Eichel and Aho and Barzal. He's simply not good enough. He would, however, be an exceptionally good 2C and give us all sorts of matchup flexibility. Assuming you won't believe Rossi or Perfetti were never going to grow another inch or gain another pound (which is absurd) then package Mantha or Hronek or all your 2nds or whatever with the 4th overall and move up and target Byfield or Stutzle. It's not that hard. And if you can't do that. Draft a guys with 1D upside. And if you can't do that, draft Askarov. Any of which would have more meaningfully improved this team that drafting a top winger. And there's not any reason to think that Raymond will even be a top winger. He's not an Ovechkin or a Kane or some other surefire type prospect. He's not even a Laine. He wasn't even considered for a top three pick, and that's for a reason. So while I think he'll be pretty good, I doubt he'll be a franchise changer for us.

No it's not. Even if Raymond were Alex Ovechkin we still wouldn't win s*** without good centers, defensemen, and a goalie. We have no 1C, 1D, or quality goaltender and we're patting ourselves on the back because we got a guy like Mitch Marner? Sweet. Marner players with world class centers (something we don't have) but doesn't have decent defenseman or goaltending. Wanna know how that's working out for him? Not too good. Raymond's a good player. On a team with quality centers he'd be a fantastic pick. But our team has bigger needs than a Mitch Marner.

Exactly, by the time Raymond (who everyone says needs a few years to develop) is even on the team Mantha will be almost 30 and/or on another team. If we tank again this year (which we clearly are) and miss out on the top pick again (which we will) then how long before we draft a center that can push Larkin down to 2C like he should be? And how long before that draft pick even hits the team? We have 3 glaring weaknesses, we didn't address any of them, and everyone (including Yzerman) says you can't get those players unless you draft them. And yet we draft a high end winger, and a bunch of depth players. Sweet.

I'm sure they'll be fine. But we've got about 40 prospects that will be "fine" players. We need top of the lineup guys. And you're only finding them A) in the 1st round, or B) with high risk/high reward type picks. We consistently do neither of those things. We don't have a top of the lineup offensive center. We don't have 1A defenseman who can score consistently and run a powerplay. We don't have a goalie who can win us games. We have some pretty good wingers, and a ton of good depth players. The three most important positions in hockey 1C, 1D, Goalie and we don't even bother trying to address those issues in a year where we have our highest pick in 30 years and all the draft capital you need to move up. Just another blah draft for a blah organization.

And I'm talking about managing a team 365 days a year. I realize no 1sts were trading in the days leading up to the draft. But if your GM is waiting until then to improve your team then he's a dumbf*ck.

Or, instead of trading guys like AA for two 2nds (that you're then going to trade back on). Maybe trade him and your extra-2nd rounder for a first. Or trade Nyquist and a prospect for a better pick? I mean, teams do this stuff all the time. Instead, we take the most conservative approach possible. Never trade anyone good, stock up on mid-round picks, and then cross our fingers. Yzerman himself acknowledged that's not going to cut it. And then he went out and did EXACTLY that.

I'm using decent player term loosely. I think they're both really good players. I don't like that Raymond is a winger, but that's splitting hairs. They're going to be very good. The point isn't that they're good or bad, it's that they're not enough. You can't just draft once in the first and hope to get ahead. Yzerman said so himself. But instead of getting more top picks, he's adopted this "let's hope a 2nd or 3rd rounder becomes a player" approach. Problem is, A) he keeps trading back, reducing the likihood that will work, and B) he keeps picking non-skill guys with limited upside with those picks.

Tons of first round picks have been traded. Collectively Ottawa, NYR, and NJ picked 8 times in the first round of this years draft. San Jose got a 1st for Barclay Goodrow. I'm not sure how anyone can believe that 1st round picks weren't available.

Why would I trust that? Hockey executives back bad decisions, and lose their jobs because of it, all the time. This draft is a carbon copy of the last one. One decent player and a bunch of depth guys. The Senators drafted 3 times in the first round this year. Six times in the first two rounds. The Devils drafted 3 times in the first round. The Rangers drafted twice in the first. All three of those teams are rebuilding, and in our conference. If you're happy with drafting once in the first, and then crossing your fingers a hoping depth picks pan out then that's on you. But clearly there's another way to approach it. Give yourself more 1st and early 2nd round picks (and don't waste them on stay at home defensemen).

If the guy you wanted will still be there five picks later, and other guys won't, then maybe you want the wrong player? Also, statistically the probability of success drops off significantly the later in the draft you go. So trading back, as a strategy, is not supported mathematically. Point is a center so I'm not sure how that comparison works. Raymond isn't. Marner is a reasonable comparison, though I don't think he's any better than Hall or Tarasenko. But sure, Marner it is. So we got a Mitch Marner type and a bunch of guys that lack offense. Cool. That'll definitely help a team that can't score and only has positional strength on the wing.

Which is why you trade up and/or make your picks earlier in the rounds so you have as many options as possible. Trading back, both within the round as well as overall, takes away your choices and creates a situation were you both NEED a kid to pan out, and don't necessarily get the kids you want. Yzerman himself talked about the need for 2nd and 3rd rounders to turn "into player". And then he went ahead and drafted at the ends of each of those rounds. Thus reducing the probability of success.

Raymond is basically a Taylor Hall or a Tarasenko type. I mean, that's good and everything, but I don't think it's a franchise changer. Wallinder has questionable offense. Niederbach is a depth center. We need high end skill, and got one high end skill guy at a position of strength for us. I'm pretty disappointed in this draft. Also, continuously trading back completely negates the returns you got on your initial trades. If Yzerman had traded AA for two 3rds and two 4th everyone would be pissed. But trading back does essentially that. When you've got a bunch of picks, make them or trade up, not back.

Are we excited about the earlier ones? Raymond is fine, I guess, but who else blew your doors off?

Cool another defensive defenseman.

Why bother drafting in the 2nd round at all. Apparently the true value of guys like AA and Nyquist is that you can eventually turn them into 3rd, 4th, and 5th rounders. Awesome.

So if I'm following this correctly, with their highest (and most) draft picks in 30 years the Red Wings have chosen to draft wingers and stay at home defensemen? Sweet.

They got a later round pick. The type of later round pick they could have used on a kid like Cross Hanas.

This draft is pretty underwhelming.

The Red Wings explicitly said that Veleno and McIsaac don't. So I'm assuming they are the only ones.