kipwinger

They're trying to clear space so I think all they'd want are futures. I'm thinking Veleno/Rasmussen + 2020 2nd + 2021 2nd. It doesn't really fit our timeline, but he's a hell of a player, and it would completely change the dynamic of our rebuild. Plus, it basically legitimizes Detroit as a reasonable UFA destination going forward. If we could get him for something like what I mentioned above I'd probably not complain too much. This top six isn't too shabby. Stamkos-Larkin-Mantha Bert-Rossi-Zadina

I'm not sure what difference these numbers make. Lafreniere (like Rossi) would have always been one of the olders players, relative to his peers, irrespective of which Jr. year he was playing. So he would have always been one of the older 16, 17, or 18 year olds. Same as Rossi. You're free to attribute Lafreniere's dominance to his otherwordly talent, and Rossi's to age, if you like. But I'd counter that the only reason Rossi didn't put up insane numbers a year ago (his only other CHL season) is because he was switching from European hockey to NA hockey, and pretty much everyone agrees that trasition is hard. Put him in NA when he was 15 and he'd have dominated here too. Similarly, he's consistently lauded for his defensive game. Not too hard to imagine him outscoring guys like Lafreniere or Perfetti if he didn't bother playing defense. Finally, the "lower scoring" argument for the QMJHL is a bit silly. All the leagues in the CHL play by exactly the same rules, there are no differences in game play. As a result, the "highest scoring" and "lowest scoring" leagues change almost annually depending on the talent in the league in any given year. Not too long ago the QMJHL was considered the "all offense" league.

Rossi is about 20 days older than Lafreniere. How much of Lafreniere's "domination" do you attribute to his age?

I can't imagine it's a fit for Detroit, but man it's fun to think about.

People think I'm complaining about the trade and the signing, I'm not. I'm okay with the trade and the contract. I'm not okay with them actually playing games, or very many games. Trade for Staal, get the pick, waive Staal and play Cholo or Lindstrom. Gagner sucks less than Staal, but if he and Filppula are the 2C and 3C then we'll still be terrible, and Michael Rasmussen won't be playing games at center for the Red Wings like he should.

If you really believe all this then why do you bother? Who cares?

Because Yzerman said that Staal will play in the press conference he gave. If that's not true, then great. I'm just taking Steve-O at face value.

I'm pretty sure he's saying he doesn't want bad players actually playing. But I'd also add that "bad contracts" do not always equal "bad players" though in Staal's case that seems to be true.

For the millionth time, I'm not bothered by the trade. I'm bothered that he intends to play Staal, specifically to tank, and is trying to paint a silver lining by talking about veteran leadership and culture and blah blah blah. I have ZERO issue with using the cap space to get future assets. I have a big problem with a defense made up of Dekeyser, Nemeth, Staal, and not Cholowski or Lindstrom.

You realize that when Mackel says Zadina is a "bust" it's just to rile you up right? At the risk of exposing Mackel's world class trolling here a bit, I feel like you should know. Matter of fact, he'll probably deny that's he's trolling you after he reads this, specifically so he can troll you more. My guess is that his true feelings about Zadina are something along the lines of "He's not as good a player as I thought we were getting when we drafted him". But the minute he throws that "bust" hook out there you gobble it up.

You should just watch the presser. He said all the stuff I said he did. But again, I'm not complaining about the trade. I'm bummed that we're deliberately tanking again because as a fan it blows watching a team be awful on purpose. If the opening night roster doesn't have Mark Staal on it, and he's the 7th dman or in the AHL or something, then I'll be more than pleased. I'm just taking Steve-O's word for it, because in the presser he said they traded for Staal intending for him to play. Same with Gagner. I'm fully aware that he isn't some big problem relative to all the other issues with the team. But the prospect of watching a team with Helm, Abby, Nielsen, Glendening, Filppula AND now Gagner too is stomach turning. There's just not a lot to be excited about as a fan this year and I had hoped that last year was as bad as it was gonna get.

I don't know why you keep referencing writers. They're all just quoting Yzerman's press conference. HE'S the one spinning this. He's the one that talked about "the culture" and "veteran leadership" and "filling holes in the defense". And it's not as though I expected us to be good. Though if we're going to be bad I might rather see Cholowski or Lindstrom in that LD spot, and Rasmussen or Veleno in the center spot. At least they have the ability to get better as the season progresses. Which is more fun for me as a fan, rather than watching Mark Staal slowly decay on ice.

That the Red Wings are deliberately tanking again, and that all this talk about guys being "good for the culture" or "filling a hole in our defense" or how we're trying to "ice a competitive team" is window dressing. Staal and Gagner suck, and they are being gifted roster spots specifically because they suck. Their locker room presence or veteran leadership qualities or whatever is just massive spin.

You can dismiss it all you want, that's fine. But I do think there's merit to it. I don't think Zadina sucks (though it's pretty fun to get everybody all riled up), but he's not as good as he was constantly made out to be and that might be why people are disappointed in his development thus far.

I don't hate the trade or anything, but I always love these stories about how good a person some player is, but they deliberately downplay how bad they suck as a player. Regardless of how good this dude is supposed to be in the locker room, he sucks. He's WAY past his usefulness. I'm happy with the 2nd rounder, but let's not kid ourselves, he's not any better than an Ericsson or a Daley. Filppula/Nemeth = Gagner/Staal. It's the same thing. Just plugging holes while obviously tanking. Pretty sure the "culture" of the team was not worse off in the hands of Filppula, Helm, Abby, Ericsson, and Daley (who have all won Cups) and Green, Nemeth, Dekeyer (who are all quality veterans) than it will be in the hands of Staal and Gagner, guys who have collectively won jack s*** in the NHL.

Look, I can't speak for Mackel but I do think that he's not entirely wrong. Imagine if, as is the case, Byfield and Stutzle were hyped all year long getting comparisons to guys like Kopitar and Kane. And then imagine one of those guys falling to you and him not being anything close to a Kopitar or Kane. That's the story with Zadina. There were times in his draft year when people were genuinely debating whether he was a better player than Svechnikov. It seems absured now, but it actually happened. And then he fell, we got him thinking he was a Svechnikov level talent, and he simply isn't. So it's not unreasonable to think that the system that built this kid up (and into a "star" in the making) has failed fans of teams like the Red Wings. And I don't think it's unreasonable for guys like Mackel to think, "this isn't what we were told we were getting. This guy sucks.".

Is this the same Brian Burke that tried to build a team around Dion Phaneuf, Phil Kessel, Tyler Bozak, and Joffrey Lupul?

I hoped, rather than expected. Getting a little sick of watching trash. I usually don't get too wrapped up in the record. I find rebuilding a lot more fun than those 2011-2015 teams that were gradually declining with the same s***ting lineups. But it's hard to get excited about a season when you know, before the season even starts, that they already intend to tank. Especially this season because it feels like FOREVER since I've seen the team play, and now on top of it when I finally do see them I know in advance that 2/3 of the roster will be old, mediocre, puds. "Hey Red Wings fans, you excited about a new season?". Well let us throw cold water on that by reminding you that any given night you're going to see Helm, Abby, Nielsen, Filppula, Gagner, Glendening, Dekeyser, and Nemeth. Boy howdy! It's miserable that the most exciting thing to happen to his team in two years is finding out that Robby Fabbri doesn't absolutely suck. Yippy. Edit: On top of that we're about to draft Cole Perfetti, who is about 4 years away from hitting puberty, so god only knows when/if he'll be an exciting new part of the Red Wings roster.

Sweet. Another year of rock bottom. Can't wait.

I was simply saying that he's not a two-way player. That, like Mantha, he's exclusively there for his offense. I was suggesting that drafting Poirier, a guy who is also known for his defensive shortcomings, may give us a player with "game breaking" talent.

I doubt it. He took a pretty team friendly deal to stay. I think he only goes if he wants to.

Which is exactly what I was saying. They can always move someone. And TBH they're going to overhaul their roster anyway this offseason. If the lose the Cup they can't very well keep the same lineup again next year after two disappointing seasons. If they win, then they can move a veteran or two without anyone complaining too much.

I'm never a fan of offersheets. In order to actually get the player you have to massively overpay. Anything less than that and you're just negotiating a contract for the other team. Any reasonable offer for Sergachev is matched by Tampa, and they'd just clear the cap space by trading a down lineup guy. Any offer they won't match would have to be so high that the player wouldn't be worth it.

If we were in a different stage of our rebuild, or if we already had different pieces in place, then I'd be advocating for different guys. But one commonality between fans, hockey pundits, and the team management alike seems to be that we need more game breaking talent. People keep saying that we have really good, but not spectacular, pieces in guys like Veleno, Ras, Berggren, Mastrosimone, McIsaac, etc. But according to most we don't have gamebreakers. Poirier has that kind of upside. High risk, high reward. I wouldn't use a top 20 pick on him. But if he falls to the 2nd round I think we'd be crazy not to give him a long look. I love two-way workhorses. Guys like Larkin, Bert, Veleno, Ras, Seider, Hronek, are the guys you lean on heavily when games matter. But you've also got to have a few of those guys that just generate offense on a different level. Mantha is that. So is Zadina. Hopefully whomever we take a 4th will be that too. But I'd like to see one or two guys like that on the back end.

I guess I wasn't being clear. I know why Markstrom is currently a topic of discussion. I guess I'm saying that I don't understand why everyone hasn't already concluded that he doesn't make any sense for the Red Wings because of his age, expected salary demands, and the marginal (maybe) improvement he'd be over Bernier.