kipwinger

I think Holland ABSOLUTELY would trade Puljujarvi for Svech straight up. As you've correctly pointed out, one of them has played a lot of games and has played himself off his NHL team, while the other has played almost no NHL games but has looked good in his small sample size before being injured. Also, Holland drafted Svech so he clearly likes the player a little bit. Secondly, Holland would be retarded if he didn't ask for the moon and stars for Puljujarvi. He's asking a lot because he doesn't need to trade him right now. So if he gets it great and if he doesn't then Puljujarvi plays in Europe. Puljujarvi playing in Europe would actually help his value, which is at an all time low. Asking for a lot (knowing he won't get it) allows Holland to A) "oblige" the player's trade request as much as possible, B) Make Edmonton's fans happy, since they don't want a replay of the Yakupov fiasco, C) let Puljujarvi recover from his injury (double hip surgery!!), D) maybe recover some of the value he's lost, and E) make use of Puljujarvi's one remaining asset, his draft pedigree. The only thing stupid about the reported asking price is if someone pays it. We're not talking about a Jonathan Drouin type of player here, who's getting traded after dropping 53 points in a season. We're talking about a guy coming off a serious injury who scored 9! points last year. Right now he's worth A) another reclaimation project (which Svechnikov isn't), or B) a 3rd round pick.

Svech has played 16 games. Puljujarvi has played 139. Again, the Red Wing most comparable to him is Adam Erne. So...yeah, dumb trade. Something tells me Svech might score a bit more riding shotgun with Draisaitl and RNH and getting powerplay time. At the very least I doubt he'd demand a trade, then threaten to play in Finland because the trade isn't happening fast enough. So yeah, bad attitude. Edit: Also, the point of bringing up Smith/Jurco was not to point out that you got something wrong. We all get it wrong about prospects sometimes. I thought Frk would be a reliable 3rd line scorer for instance. He isn't. The point was to illustrate HOW you got it wrong. You made excuses for the guys past the point that any rational person might, and then when it was finally obvious that they sucked, you blamed everyone else but them. Same thing you're doing here. Puljujarvi blows. You're just the last one to recognize it.

All this talk about floors and ceilings and mismanagement reminds me of your Smith and Jurco talk a few years ago. Fans always talk about some underperformer's "potential" until it's obvious they blow, and then it's someone else's fault. Puljujarvi's had ample time in the AHL to round out his game. Nobody rushed him. He played 39 AHL games and tore it up, but couldn't manage to do the same in the NHL. Reminds me of guys like Frk or Jurco or Pulkkinen. There's no shortage of guys who are lights out in the AHL and then can't manage to make an impact in the NHL. More seasoning isn't going to help them. Then he was given every opportunity to make an impact at the NHL level. He's played more than 130 games alongside world class centermen (McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH). He was given PP time from the beginning, and then saw if trail off to nothing this last season when he failed to produce. Sure Edmonton is a dumpster fire, but tons of teams are and their higher end picks still find a way to make a statement. Nobody has to make "Ottawa sucks" excuses for Brady Tkachuk because he's actually good. Same goes for Clayton Keller. Same for Huberdeau. Same for Eichel. Same for any number of other guys relegated to perpetually sh*tty organizations but still find a way to be effective. The guy's a bum. Maybe Svech will turn out to be one too. But that's far from certain. Because unlike Puljujarvi he hasn't been given every possible opportunity to succeed in the NHL. His chance to finally break onto the main roster was last year and he blew his knee out. So we don't know what we have in him. Might want to see what he actually is before moving out for some hack with a bad attitude. Edit: For reference's sake, the Red Wing closest to Puljujarvi in terms of age, games played, and production is Adam Erne.

But we aren't really in a position where we need to "take a flier". If Svech fizzles out, then sure, I'd be down for trading one bum for another in hopes that it might ignite someone's career. But we don't even know what we have in Svech right now. And we don't really need a reclaimation project during a rebuild. I'd also argue that organizationally we've only got a few "diggers": Bert is the proven one, and then MAYBE Svech, Ras, and Grewe. We've got a fair amount of left handed skill guys: Mantha, AA, Zadina, Berggren, Mastrosimone, Hirose, Kivenmaki. So if you're going to take a "flier" on a no-good righty, which I don't think we should, I'd probably center it around one of those guys knowing that if it doesn't work out we've got plenty more depth in that area.

Seems flimsy. Puljujarvi sucks. First, see what you have in Svech. He might be really valuable as a digger for a guy like AA or Zadina down the road (the way Bert is for Mantha and Larkin). If so, don't trade him because you need those guys to retrieve the pucks for the skill guys. But if you're dead set on trading him for a righty, trade him for a GOOD righty. Again, Puljujarvi sucks.

Another big dorky baby who never lived up to his "potential". Least this loser won't cost us anything to eventually get rid of. I would only ever use those camp tryouts on veteran guys like Jokkinen or Booth or someone like that. Someone desperate for one last chance. That way the young guys have some motivation to show up, do things right, and work hard because you know the veteran will if you don't.

I have to assume you guys would "do it"..."all day" because of Svech's injury and not because of their respective careers up to this point. Svech has shown better in his short time (admittedly a small sample size), but Puljujarvi has been given a fair amount of opportunity to crack his squad and make a difference and he basically can't. He's also a p*ssy, and doesn't like playing in the corners. Something Svech has no issue with. Puljujarvi sucks. He's another Valeri Nichushkin. He big, skilled, and has a high draft pedigree so people assume he's supposed to be good. But he can't play with pace, doesn't win physical battles, and basically wants to play KHL hockey all game (float around waiting for his linemates to set him up in the open ice). No thanks. I'll stick with the kid who actually works hard and isn't a b*tch.

Most underrated D-man of his era.

Add Mittelstadt to Risto and McIsaac and that's a good start.

Yeah, they look really good. They should just wear these all the time.

That very well might be what Yzerman has in mind. Still would prefer a guy who can score AND retrieve pucks like Bert though. Obviously I expect Bert to be that guy on the first line, and then some combination of Erne, Helm, and Abby doing it on the next three lines. Ideally those last three spots will go to some combination of Rasmussen, Grewe, Svech or some UFA in the future though. Given the roster that we have right now, I think we'll see something like this: Bert-Lark-Mantha Erne/Abby/Helm-Filppula/Nielsen-AA Erne/Abby/Helm-Filpuula/Nielsen-Hirose Erne/Abby/Helm-Glendening-Ehn/De La Rose Ehn/De La Rose Sorry if that's hard to follow. But I think you get the idea. Lots of guys are interchangeable on this squad. Edit: Would have liked to have seen Steven bring in someone like Michael Ferland to fill that spot though. After he didn't sign for a few days following FA, and Steve's comments about bringing in another winger, I thought he'd be a good option but oh well.

Unless winning puck battles stops being important in the next couple of months I suspect your Zadina-Filppula-AA line ain't gonna happen.

FWIW, I don't vote at all and have never belonged to a political party.

More or less valuable than a 4th line plug? But again...loyalty ya know? I get it.

Me too, could have been the next Jari Kurri.

Had to acquire him first. I'm told an extension is in the works.

Man, when are the Red Wings going to stop with all these loyalty moves. Just because you drafted a guy, or signed him as an FA years ago, doesn't mean you have to keep bringing them back if they suck amirite?

Seems a little like another Abdelkader to me. Edit: You'll all remember Erne from his bout with noted Red Wings tough guy Andreas Athanasiou in 2017. It was a draw, so apparently he fights as well as Abby does too.

If Seider ends up only being as good as Brandon Carlo then Steve Yzerman should be fired. You don't take "Brandon Carlo" types with the 6th overall pick. If he's not a Colton Paryako at least, and a Seth Jones at most, then it's a wasted pick in a crucial year.

I mean, he took a lot of head shots over his career. A WHOLE bunch just in the 2002 series again Vancouver alone. So I wouldn't count on it.

He was already downgraded to, like, a video coach or something like that. He was in a much more minor role. Houda and Bylsma are the primary assistant coaches.

Well, I'd clarify one point which is that offense (points) and possession (shots attempts) aren't the same thing. One can score a lot and have bad possession metrics, such as AA. Or you can have really good possession metrics and rarely score (Brendan Smith). So you can't really use possession metrics as evidence that a player is better offensively, it only indicates who has the puck more when they're on the ice. That caveat aside... Usage, zone starts, linemates all impact possession numbers. Possession metrics are all predicated on shots, or shot attempts. So all things being equal, having better linemates, starting more in the offensive zone, or simply shooting more yourself should all increase one's possession metrics. AA has really good offensive numbers, and really poor possession metrics because he doesn't shoot much and typically has poor linemates. He does generally get favorable zone starts though not as much as Mantha. Mantha has much higher possession metrics (again, this simply means adjusted shot attempts), in large part because he shoots a lot more, but also because he plays with some of the better shot generators on the team (Larkin and Bert). Though it should be noted that just like they contribute to Mantha's shot generation, he contributes to theirs as well. Finally, Mantha is HEAVILY sheltered in terms of zone starts. Only Frk and Vanek started in the offensive zone more than Mantha. This, probably more than anything else, explains why Mantha's possession numbers are so high. Pretty easy to generate shots when you don't have to go 200 feet to do so. Another caveat, don't infer causation where it doesn't exist. Mantha is a good offensive player (and bad defensive one), who's especially good on the cycle, so of course he gets a lot of offensive zone starts and as a result gets a bump in his possession metrics. But that's the way it's supposed to go. It's a little like saying, "well So-and-so is only good because he's on the powerplay". Sure, but he wouldn't be on the powerplay if he wasn't a good offensive player ya know? Mantha has essentially no utility outside of the offensive zone (the same is basically true of AA as well, but less so), so he's only used there. But he's pretty good there. So he sees a bump in his possession metrics, but that isn't the cause of his offensive. It's the result of his being good offensively. It's just the cause of his good possession numbers.

There are actually stats which can put this whole debate to rest pretty easily because the NHL adjusts for scoring per/60. So you don't have to speculate who would be better if so and so played the same number of games as the other guy. G/60: Over the last three years AA has been better than Mantha every year in goals/60. Typically by a pretty wide margin. AA also scores more on way fewer shots as well, which is probably another indication that he's a better goal scorer. A/60: Mantha has the advantage in assists/60 over the three years, also by a wide margin, so he's pretty obviously better at generating assists P/60: In '17 and '18 Mantha led in points/60, while AA led in points/60 in 2019. These figures, for obvious reasons, are much closer. So thems the facts. And since both of them suck defensively, I'd say it's pretty clear cut which player does what better. Both are WAY better at one particular thing, and both have the same noticeable holes in their games. The idea that either of them is a significantly better all around player is dumb. The facts just don't support that.

Make no mistake about it, we're going to suck this season. Yzerman has basically indicated as much through his (in)actions. Even if ALL of the young guys (Larkin, Mantha, Bert, AA, Hronek) take a step forward there's only so much better that they're going to be. And literally every other problem we had a year ago is still a problem this year. No quality centers after Larkin, a defense full of pylons (and Filip Hronek), same powerplay, same coaches, same everything. Well, that and the addition of an over the hill Filppula and a defenseman who can't generate any offense. It still remains to be seen whether or not team will turn it around in the long term, but this season is going to be just as abysmal as last year. Matter of fact, I think Steve-o is counting on it.

If you exclude Nyquist and Tatar we didn't have much luck ANYWHERE from about 2005-2013. The only two real successes we had during that time were European.