kipwinger

We haven't had much luck in Europe since 2005-6?

Am being told he found his true calling in another professional sports league.

You asked the question.

You know that "bigness" isn't a hockey skill right? You also know that we've been drafting really big dudes for like 5 years right?

I KNEW IT! "Cuz he big" IS the reason for this whole absurd scenario. You got me man. If we ignore all the other big and/or tough and/or gritty guys on this team who ARE good at hockey then we've really got nobody like Mike McCarron. You win. And obviously having a HUGE scorer who isn't good at scoring but is good at hitting (?) is a key component to any Cup winning team.

Turgeon, if not signed, would have been an RFA. They absolutely, positively, 100% would NOT have lost him for nothing. So the rest of your line of reasoning is irrelevant.

Man, you really had me going. Who knew that instead of you yet again being all histrionic when someone disagrees with you (as has been the case for years), this has all been a clever ruse to prove to everyone that I'm a d*ck? You're thinking like 10 steps ahead here. You're basically the Napoleon of LGW. I'm in awe. I'm not going to address your sock account, @krsmith17. One of you is more than enough.

So you've chosen to argue with me all morning about a trade you don't care about to prove how SMART you are? Good thinking.

First, Turgeon doesn't need a "boost". He's already played well enough to earn a new contract from the vaunted GM Yzerman. McCarron's the one who has played his way off his NHL team. Speaking of, I just want you to reiterate that you're in favor of trading for a player who has already proven over the course of roughly 70 NHL games that he sucks because he "might" play better after a "change of scenery"? And you'd trade a player that the Wings' organization is obviously happy with in order to get this retread? And you don't think that's a dumb trade?

I didn't call you a name. I said it's a dumb trade and only dumb people would endorse it. You don't have to endorse it. You can back out now and just admit trading for a one-trick pony who isn't even good at his one trick is a bad idea for a trade. The only way the "dumb" comment applies to you is if you'd make the trade. So would you?

Yeah, Turgeon has played 9 NHL games. That's a pretty small sample size. However, McCarron has sucked in 69 NHL games. So take that for what it's worth. Also, as already noted Turgeon wasn't drafted to be a scorer. McCarron WAS drafted to be a scorer, so his .12 ppg over 69 games should be proof positive that he blows. AND McCarron is terrible at everything else. Turgeon isn't, which is why the Wings re-signed him. It's an idiotic trade that would accomplish nothing. We'd get nothing good out of it. It's the very definition of dumb. If a person finds themselves defending such a trade, they are also dumb. It's science.

McCarron has already proven he can't score in the NHL. He's not good at anything else. Turgeon isn't a scorer, but IS good at everything else. As such, he's more valuable. Edit: I don't think I know more than everyone else. Just you.

Aho is a demonstrably better player than Svech. McCarron isn't a demonstrably better player than Turgeon. Again, the premise of the trade is that since neither are any good, why not? I'll always make trades that improve the team. Trades that don't do anything are pointless, and dumb. Checking line centers are supposed to do things like play defense, win faceoffs, kill penalties, etc. McCarron isn't that guy, so why bother with him? Nope, you should make trades if a player is better, fills a need, has a better contract, etc. etc. etc. TONS of reasons to make trades. What you should definitely not do is make a trade just for the heck of it. Which is EXACTLY what this would be. The Wings like Turgeon, he checks all the boxes for a checking line center, McCarron fills none of them. He's also younger for what that's worth. And since neither of these guys is going to be anything MORE than a checking line center, why trade for the worse one? Again, it's an idiotic trade idea supported by lazy fans who get it in their head that they "like" a player and then jump through hoops trying to justify why acquiring that player is a good idea. It's not. McCarron sucks. We have plenty of guys who suck. Why swap them? For a different version of "suck"?

My point is that the Red Wings like Turgeon, and there's nothing to indicate they have any feelings at all about McCarron except that they had the chance to draft him and didn't. Your whole "why not if you like the deal?" scenario is silly because there's everything to suggest the Red Wings "like" Turgeon and nothing to suggest they would want McCarron. So why would they "like a deal for McCarron"? It's a nothing trade for no reason. But then again, big puds like McCarron will always appeal to somebody I suppose.

"Your" in the universal sense. I know it wasn't your specific trade proposal. Also, I don't care whether or not Turgeon wants to play in Montreal or vice versa. This a business. If it doesn't improve the organization then it's not worth bothering with. Also, the Red Wings might very well like Turgeon's game. I mean, they drafted him AND re-signed him. So trading him because McCarron is from Michigan seems pretty dumb unless they like McCarron just as much or more, and there's nothing to indicate that they do (having passed on him in the draft).

If the premise of your trade is "neither of these guys are going to play in the NHL" and you've just re-signed Turgeon (indicating you're happy with this play at the AHL level) then what would you hope to gain from the transaction?

Why bother?

Going head to head against the best competition on Earth, would I rather have a guy who's never, ever, played center or a guy who's played center his whole life and was just drafted 1st overall at that position? Hmmmm...I'll have to think about this one.

Werenski hasn't signed because Marner hasn't signed. All the RFAs are waiting for Marner's contract to dictate the market. I follow the Blue Jackets guy who writes for the Athletic and he's pretty good. He said within the last couple of days that Werenski and the BJ's are having very amicable contract talks, and there's no reason to think he won't get signed. He's just waiting on Marner like all the RFAs are.

That's EXACTLY what was being debated. Dude said, like two weeks ago, that he wanted Lafreniere centering Zadina and AA. I responded that Lafreniere wasn't a center, and this whole debate was born. This is the same guy who said foward positions don't matter though. There are no wingers or centers, just forwards. So, ya know, dumb. Also, TONS of guys "have it in them" based on their skill and athleticism to play different positions. And yet they don't. Switching from wing to center, without having ever played center, is really really rare. Most likely because it's a harder position in a harder league. Guys switch from center to wing because it's EASIER and they can't hack it down the middle once they get to the NHL. Not the other way around. Athanasiou is an amazing winger, and an ok center, for this exact reason. Lafreniere has never needed to play defense at a high level, never needed to win faceoffs, none of it. Now he's going to be asked to learn to do that against Conner McDavid? Lol. Why bother when he's already going to be a superstar winger?

Zetterberg was natural center in Sweden, not a winger. He switched from center to wing (temporarily) and back to center in Sweden and then did the same at the NHL level. He was not a natural winger who switched to center. Get your facts right. That's exactly the point. He's going to be an impact player anyway. And center is harder than wing in the NHL. And whomever drafts him is probably going to be hugely dependent on his being a star. So why would (demonstrably conservative) hockey teams ask him to do something harder, that he's never done, against the hardest competitiion on Earth when he's going to be an impact winger without any risk?

Yes, and yes? Tell you what, why don't you hang on to this one extra tight, and when some guy who's never played center in his life (like Lafreniere) starts doing so in the NHL you can tell me "I told you so". It'll be totally sweet. Did you learn that philosophy from Wayne Gretzky, Hall of Fame winger? Seriously though, when you get right down to it what really are positions anyway? I mean, what's to stop Chris Chelios from playing center if he feels like it? We all know Fedorov played defense for like 2 games, so obviously player positions have basically been irrelevant since the 90s amirite?

Oh, so you don't think Alexis Lafreniere is going to be an NHL center? Glad you agree with me. I've been saying so for weeks. Hear that @Jonas Mahonas, that's now two people who think your idea of drafting Lafreniere and switching him to center is unlikely (and stupid). As for the rest of the drivel, I never said positional change was impossible so you're lying and wrong on that accusation. And I also already acknowledged that Giroux and Aho played center AND wing before being drafted, so you're obtuse and wrong on that point. Also, I'm not sure how listing two guys who played center and wing before coming to the NHL and playing center helps your argument. Certainly I'd argue that a guy who won the World Junior Championships as a center (Aho) has a pretty good shot of being a quality NHL center one day. Than again I'd rather reach out and try to grab the moon than attempt to understand the rationale of a dingbat. Edit: If you ask really really really nicely I'll educate you on WHY asking a guy who's never played center to switch and do so in the NHL is laughably unlikely (and stupid).

Elite Prospects lists all of those guys as centers (Kuznetsov, Little), or C/W (Giroux, Aho, Dubois), in their draft years. Winger was not the "natural position" of any of them. Lafreniere has NEVER played center at all in Junior hockey. Big difference. Note: I'm defaulting to Elite Prospects here because they start tracking guys well before their draft seasons and I, admittedly, didn't watch Bryan "F*cking" Little play junior hockey.

Now you're backpedaling. You said before "I wouldn't be surprised if he switched to center". Now you don't think he will? Pick a side man. Or is the whole point that you say contradictory things so that you're never wrong about anything? I also love that you're now falling back on "well, it's 'possible' he could...durr". It's also possible he quits playing hockey and dedicates his life to musical theater. I'm saying that it's so unlikely (because, among other things, it's an idiotic idea) as to be not worth discussing. BTW it's also "possible" that he could play defense. As you've pointed out, more guys have switched from wing to defense than have ever gone from wing to center. Yet you, and Jonas, don't seem so fascinated by that idea. Wonder why? Maybe because you're having trouble reconciling the fact that you want the Wings to draft the consensus "best player" but also realize he doesn't actually fill a need on the team? Here's a bet I'll make with you, or Jonas, or anyone else. Take ANY natural winger from the 2019 or 2020 draft class. Don't care who. And for every season they switch and play center, I'll donate $20 bucks to a charity of your choice. For the duration of their careers. And for every season they don't, in perpetuity, you have to post (at the end of their season) on LGW, "I'm a harebrained dumbf*ck who lets my argumentative nature get me into stupid, and avoidable, debates with Kipwinger for no reason". Deal?