kipwinger

Very possible. Likely in fact. That bottom pair of Ericsson/Daly/Bowey is going to be a nightmare though. Hard to imagine they won't get scored on constantly. You'd have to think Yzerman would want to remedy that as soon as possible. Then again, any or all of Daly/Ericsson/Green are likely to be injured coming out of training camp.

I agree that Yzerman is not likely going to feel beholden to the vets. But I also know he probably doesn't want the team getting scored on constantly. And while Ericsson and Daly definitely suck, in general veterans are more committed defensive players that young guys. Especially young "offensive" defensemen. I can see Cholo getting the nod despite his defensive game needing work. I just can't see him being paired with someone who is also bad defensively (Kaski, Bowey). Or maybe the latter two are better than I think and it's not an issue.

Yeah, I'm happy with our defense. I was before this year's draft and I obviously still am. Forking out a bunch of assets for a defenseman at this point seems silly. It's no longer an organizational weakness going forward. I think everybody is just used to the old "our defense sucks" refrain so they keep thinking we need to address it. We already have. We just need centers in next year's draft. Preferably ones that have high offensive upsides. We've got two workhorse guys (Larkin, Veleno). Would be nice to have a guy that could kill teams offensively a la Backstrom, Giroux, Aho.

You're chasing your tail a bit here. The guy is demonstrably only sorta effective when he's playing with the best center on earth. And even then he only scored 14 points in like 400 minutes with McDavid. So for him to be better than that on our team we'd have to A) win the draft lottery (which is hard even if you're the worst team in the league), and B) draft a center as good/better than McDavid (there are none). Trading for the guy just doesn't make sense. Sorry man. You can try to rationalize your preference all you want. Svech scores at basically the same rate, from our 4th line, without needed McDavid to drag him up and down the ice.

So you have to figure Cholowski is the leading candidate to get Kronwall's spot on the left side of the defense. Wonder who his partner will be. Conventional wisdom would have it that you'd pair him with a righty, but our remaining righties are Bowey and Kaski. Either of those two with Cholo is a recipe for getting scored on. So looks like one of Daly or Ericsson still draws in? DK-Green Nemeth-Hronek Cholo-Daly/Ericsson?

You're also MASSIVELY overpaying for the guy. He's a good player, but he's not that good. Reminds me a lot of young Keith Yandle. He's very good offensively, and feisty, but he's cheats for offense a lot and is a bit of an adventure in the d-zone. There's a reason Seth Jones is the workhorse for the BJs. In the very near future I think Hronek will be providing all of the same qualities as Werenski does without needing to give up half our team to get him.

Wait, so you want to trade for Puljujarvi with the expectation that it will pay off if we somehow manage to draft Lafreniere? Ok man.

Well we don't have a Wayne Gretzky or a Connor McDavid. So guys that are heavily dependent on playing with centers like that wouldn't do very well here.

Then there's this, from an article in the Athletic referencing Puljujarvi. "We’ve covered this road before, but Puljujarvi’s ideal spot is on the right wing with Connor McDavid as his centre. In three seasons with Edmonton, Puljujarvi has played 407 minutes and 44 seconds at five-on-five with McDavid, scoring 6-8-14 for 2.06 points per 60. That’s a better number than Alex Chiasson had with McDavid (1.48 per 60 in 284 minutes) and better than Zack Kassian (1.96 per 60 in 428 minutes) one year ago. Despite the results, Puljujarvi’s (almost) 408 minutes at five-on-five with McDavid during his entry deal represent 25 percent of his playing time. Puljujarvi has produced just 17 points in over 1,600 minutes away from McDavid. That’s 0.63 points per 60 at five-on-five away from the captain. Puljujarvi’s possession numbers with McDavid also shine like a diamond: During his entry years, Puljujarvi with McDavid owns a 55 percent possession rate (Corsi-for) five-on-five via Natural Stat Trick. Without McDavid, his Corsi-for five-on-five as an Oilers player is 47.9 percent."

I just want to reiterate that I think Svech is still an unknown, not that he's somehow definitely better than Puljujarvi. As such, I'd rather see what we have in him before we trade him. Why do I think he's an unknown? Three years ago he played two games in the NHL and looked lost, but he tore up the AHL. Then two years ago he had a down year for most of the season in the AHL, but got called up at the end of the season for 14 games. The first 6 of those games he was a non-factor. Then he scored 4 points in his last 8 games and earned a little more ice time each game. Then finally, going into last year he started out the pre-season looking pretty good, scoring 2g and 1a in 5 games, and looked very much like he'd make the team. Then he blew out his knee and the rest is history. Again, I realize it's a small sample size including a pre-season. But there's enough there for me to want to see if what else he's got. Whereas with Puljujarvi I see a guy who's been given ample opportunity and squandered it, with Svech I see a guy who may be a productive player with that same opportunity. I could be wrong, but that's my rationale. You've made your point man. We all get that you don't think Zadina is going to be all that good. Maybe not. But bringing it up at every opportunity isn't contributing in any way to the discussion.

A guy who scored 9 points in 46 games last year, and then had two hip surgeries, is worth a 3rd round pick. Yes. And that's precisely why Ken Holland isn't in a rush to trade him.

This particular rebuttal cuts the deepest. You win.

I think Holland ABSOLUTELY would trade Puljujarvi for Svech straight up. As you've correctly pointed out, one of them has played a lot of games and has played himself off his NHL team, while the other has played almost no NHL games but has looked good in his small sample size before being injured. Also, Holland drafted Svech so he clearly likes the player a little bit. Secondly, Holland would be retarded if he didn't ask for the moon and stars for Puljujarvi. He's asking a lot because he doesn't need to trade him right now. So if he gets it great and if he doesn't then Puljujarvi plays in Europe. Puljujarvi playing in Europe would actually help his value, which is at an all time low. Asking for a lot (knowing he won't get it) allows Holland to A) "oblige" the player's trade request as much as possible, B) Make Edmonton's fans happy, since they don't want a replay of the Yakupov fiasco, C) let Puljujarvi recover from his injury (double hip surgery!!), D) maybe recover some of the value he's lost, and E) make use of Puljujarvi's one remaining asset, his draft pedigree. The only thing stupid about the reported asking price is if someone pays it. We're not talking about a Jonathan Drouin type of player here, who's getting traded after dropping 53 points in a season. We're talking about a guy coming off a serious injury who scored 9! points last year. Right now he's worth A) another reclaimation project (which Svechnikov isn't), or B) a 3rd round pick.

Svech has played 16 games. Puljujarvi has played 139. Again, the Red Wing most comparable to him is Adam Erne. So...yeah, dumb trade. Something tells me Svech might score a bit more riding shotgun with Draisaitl and RNH and getting powerplay time. At the very least I doubt he'd demand a trade, then threaten to play in Finland because the trade isn't happening fast enough. So yeah, bad attitude. Edit: Also, the point of bringing up Smith/Jurco was not to point out that you got something wrong. We all get it wrong about prospects sometimes. I thought Frk would be a reliable 3rd line scorer for instance. He isn't. The point was to illustrate HOW you got it wrong. You made excuses for the guys past the point that any rational person might, and then when it was finally obvious that they sucked, you blamed everyone else but them. Same thing you're doing here. Puljujarvi blows. You're just the last one to recognize it.

All this talk about floors and ceilings and mismanagement reminds me of your Smith and Jurco talk a few years ago. Fans always talk about some underperformer's "potential" until it's obvious they blow, and then it's someone else's fault. Puljujarvi's had ample time in the AHL to round out his game. Nobody rushed him. He played 39 AHL games and tore it up, but couldn't manage to do the same in the NHL. Reminds me of guys like Frk or Jurco or Pulkkinen. There's no shortage of guys who are lights out in the AHL and then can't manage to make an impact in the NHL. More seasoning isn't going to help them. Then he was given every opportunity to make an impact at the NHL level. He's played more than 130 games alongside world class centermen (McDavid, Draisaitl, RNH). He was given PP time from the beginning, and then saw if trail off to nothing this last season when he failed to produce. Sure Edmonton is a dumpster fire, but tons of teams are and their higher end picks still find a way to make a statement. Nobody has to make "Ottawa sucks" excuses for Brady Tkachuk because he's actually good. Same goes for Clayton Keller. Same for Huberdeau. Same for Eichel. Same for any number of other guys relegated to perpetually sh*tty organizations but still find a way to be effective. The guy's a bum. Maybe Svech will turn out to be one too. But that's far from certain. Because unlike Puljujarvi he hasn't been given every possible opportunity to succeed in the NHL. His chance to finally break onto the main roster was last year and he blew his knee out. So we don't know what we have in him. Might want to see what he actually is before moving out for some hack with a bad attitude. Edit: For reference's sake, the Red Wing closest to Puljujarvi in terms of age, games played, and production is Adam Erne.

But we aren't really in a position where we need to "take a flier". If Svech fizzles out, then sure, I'd be down for trading one bum for another in hopes that it might ignite someone's career. But we don't even know what we have in Svech right now. And we don't really need a reclaimation project during a rebuild. I'd also argue that organizationally we've only got a few "diggers": Bert is the proven one, and then MAYBE Svech, Ras, and Grewe. We've got a fair amount of left handed skill guys: Mantha, AA, Zadina, Berggren, Mastrosimone, Hirose, Kivenmaki. So if you're going to take a "flier" on a no-good righty, which I don't think we should, I'd probably center it around one of those guys knowing that if it doesn't work out we've got plenty more depth in that area.

Seems flimsy. Puljujarvi sucks. First, see what you have in Svech. He might be really valuable as a digger for a guy like AA or Zadina down the road (the way Bert is for Mantha and Larkin). If so, don't trade him because you need those guys to retrieve the pucks for the skill guys. But if you're dead set on trading him for a righty, trade him for a GOOD righty. Again, Puljujarvi sucks.

Another big dorky baby who never lived up to his "potential". Least this loser won't cost us anything to eventually get rid of. I would only ever use those camp tryouts on veteran guys like Jokkinen or Booth or someone like that. Someone desperate for one last chance. That way the young guys have some motivation to show up, do things right, and work hard because you know the veteran will if you don't.

I have to assume you guys would "do it"..."all day" because of Svech's injury and not because of their respective careers up to this point. Svech has shown better in his short time (admittedly a small sample size), but Puljujarvi has been given a fair amount of opportunity to crack his squad and make a difference and he basically can't. He's also a p*ssy, and doesn't like playing in the corners. Something Svech has no issue with. Puljujarvi sucks. He's another Valeri Nichushkin. He big, skilled, and has a high draft pedigree so people assume he's supposed to be good. But he can't play with pace, doesn't win physical battles, and basically wants to play KHL hockey all game (float around waiting for his linemates to set him up in the open ice). No thanks. I'll stick with the kid who actually works hard and isn't a b*tch.

Most underrated D-man of his era.

Add Mittelstadt to Risto and McIsaac and that's a good start.

Yeah, they look really good. They should just wear these all the time.

That very well might be what Yzerman has in mind. Still would prefer a guy who can score AND retrieve pucks like Bert though. Obviously I expect Bert to be that guy on the first line, and then some combination of Erne, Helm, and Abby doing it on the next three lines. Ideally those last three spots will go to some combination of Rasmussen, Grewe, Svech or some UFA in the future though. Given the roster that we have right now, I think we'll see something like this: Bert-Lark-Mantha Erne/Abby/Helm-Filppula/Nielsen-AA Erne/Abby/Helm-Filpuula/Nielsen-Hirose Erne/Abby/Helm-Glendening-Ehn/De La Rose Ehn/De La Rose Sorry if that's hard to follow. But I think you get the idea. Lots of guys are interchangeable on this squad. Edit: Would have liked to have seen Steven bring in someone like Michael Ferland to fill that spot though. After he didn't sign for a few days following FA, and Steve's comments about bringing in another winger, I thought he'd be a good option but oh well.

Unless winning puck battles stops being important in the next couple of months I suspect your Zadina-Filppula-AA line ain't gonna happen.

FWIW, I don't vote at all and have never belonged to a political party.