kipwinger

My point is that the Red Wings like Turgeon, and there's nothing to indicate they have any feelings at all about McCarron except that they had the chance to draft him and didn't. Your whole "why not if you like the deal?" scenario is silly because there's everything to suggest the Red Wings "like" Turgeon and nothing to suggest they would want McCarron. So why would they "like a deal for McCarron"? It's a nothing trade for no reason. But then again, big puds like McCarron will always appeal to somebody I suppose.

"Your" in the universal sense. I know it wasn't your specific trade proposal. Also, I don't care whether or not Turgeon wants to play in Montreal or vice versa. This a business. If it doesn't improve the organization then it's not worth bothering with. Also, the Red Wings might very well like Turgeon's game. I mean, they drafted him AND re-signed him. So trading him because McCarron is from Michigan seems pretty dumb unless they like McCarron just as much or more, and there's nothing to indicate that they do (having passed on him in the draft).

If the premise of your trade is "neither of these guys are going to play in the NHL" and you've just re-signed Turgeon (indicating you're happy with this play at the AHL level) then what would you hope to gain from the transaction?

Why bother?

Going head to head against the best competition on Earth, would I rather have a guy who's never, ever, played center or a guy who's played center his whole life and was just drafted 1st overall at that position? Hmmmm...I'll have to think about this one.

Werenski hasn't signed because Marner hasn't signed. All the RFAs are waiting for Marner's contract to dictate the market. I follow the Blue Jackets guy who writes for the Athletic and he's pretty good. He said within the last couple of days that Werenski and the BJ's are having very amicable contract talks, and there's no reason to think he won't get signed. He's just waiting on Marner like all the RFAs are.

That's EXACTLY what was being debated. Dude said, like two weeks ago, that he wanted Lafreniere centering Zadina and AA. I responded that Lafreniere wasn't a center, and this whole debate was born. This is the same guy who said foward positions don't matter though. There are no wingers or centers, just forwards. So, ya know, dumb. Also, TONS of guys "have it in them" based on their skill and athleticism to play different positions. And yet they don't. Switching from wing to center, without having ever played center, is really really rare. Most likely because it's a harder position in a harder league. Guys switch from center to wing because it's EASIER and they can't hack it down the middle once they get to the NHL. Not the other way around. Athanasiou is an amazing winger, and an ok center, for this exact reason. Lafreniere has never needed to play defense at a high level, never needed to win faceoffs, none of it. Now he's going to be asked to learn to do that against Conner McDavid? Lol. Why bother when he's already going to be a superstar winger?

Zetterberg was natural center in Sweden, not a winger. He switched from center to wing (temporarily) and back to center in Sweden and then did the same at the NHL level. He was not a natural winger who switched to center. Get your facts right. That's exactly the point. He's going to be an impact player anyway. And center is harder than wing in the NHL. And whomever drafts him is probably going to be hugely dependent on his being a star. So why would (demonstrably conservative) hockey teams ask him to do something harder, that he's never done, against the hardest competitiion on Earth when he's going to be an impact winger without any risk?

Yes, and yes? Tell you what, why don't you hang on to this one extra tight, and when some guy who's never played center in his life (like Lafreniere) starts doing so in the NHL you can tell me "I told you so". It'll be totally sweet. Did you learn that philosophy from Wayne Gretzky, Hall of Fame winger? Seriously though, when you get right down to it what really are positions anyway? I mean, what's to stop Chris Chelios from playing center if he feels like it? We all know Fedorov played defense for like 2 games, so obviously player positions have basically been irrelevant since the 90s amirite?

Oh, so you don't think Alexis Lafreniere is going to be an NHL center? Glad you agree with me. I've been saying so for weeks. Hear that @Jonas Mahonas, that's now two people who think your idea of drafting Lafreniere and switching him to center is unlikely (and stupid). As for the rest of the drivel, I never said positional change was impossible so you're lying and wrong on that accusation. And I also already acknowledged that Giroux and Aho played center AND wing before being drafted, so you're obtuse and wrong on that point. Also, I'm not sure how listing two guys who played center and wing before coming to the NHL and playing center helps your argument. Certainly I'd argue that a guy who won the World Junior Championships as a center (Aho) has a pretty good shot of being a quality NHL center one day. Than again I'd rather reach out and try to grab the moon than attempt to understand the rationale of a dingbat. Edit: If you ask really really really nicely I'll educate you on WHY asking a guy who's never played center to switch and do so in the NHL is laughably unlikely (and stupid).

Elite Prospects lists all of those guys as centers (Kuznetsov, Little), or C/W (Giroux, Aho, Dubois), in their draft years. Winger was not the "natural position" of any of them. Lafreniere has NEVER played center at all in Junior hockey. Big difference. Note: I'm defaulting to Elite Prospects here because they start tracking guys well before their draft seasons and I, admittedly, didn't watch Bryan "F*cking" Little play junior hockey.

Now you're backpedaling. You said before "I wouldn't be surprised if he switched to center". Now you don't think he will? Pick a side man. Or is the whole point that you say contradictory things so that you're never wrong about anything? I also love that you're now falling back on "well, it's 'possible' he could...durr". It's also possible he quits playing hockey and dedicates his life to musical theater. I'm saying that it's so unlikely (because, among other things, it's an idiotic idea) as to be not worth discussing. BTW it's also "possible" that he could play defense. As you've pointed out, more guys have switched from wing to defense than have ever gone from wing to center. Yet you, and Jonas, don't seem so fascinated by that idea. Wonder why? Maybe because you're having trouble reconciling the fact that you want the Wings to draft the consensus "best player" but also realize he doesn't actually fill a need on the team? Here's a bet I'll make with you, or Jonas, or anyone else. Take ANY natural winger from the 2019 or 2020 draft class. Don't care who. And for every season they switch and play center, I'll donate $20 bucks to a charity of your choice. For the duration of their careers. And for every season they don't, in perpetuity, you have to post (at the end of their season) on LGW, "I'm a harebrained dumbf*ck who lets my argumentative nature get me into stupid, and avoidable, debates with Kipwinger for no reason". Deal?

I see your line of thinking, which seems to be that both of those guys are better offensive players at this point than Rasmussen. But I'm not sure that's the only factor. Puck retrieval is a big factor in maintaining offensive zone time, and I don't really like Filppula/Nielsen with AA and Zadina or to a lesser extent Veleno. Not sure who's going to win those board battles a la Bertuzzi and Mantha on that top line. Bertuzzi is actually a great example, he's a good offensive player no doubt but not better than AA. Yet the top line works better with Bert on it because he helps maintain offensive possession. Ideally I'd want Mantha, AA, and Zadina on different lines with Bert, Ras, and maybe Svech (or some other puck retrieval complimentary winger) opposite them. Ras may not be the best option right now, but I'm afraid any combination of AA, Zadina, Veleno gets physically dominated in the O-zone.

Show me all the guys who were drafted at wing and then switched to center in the NHL. I'll wait. So, I take it from this post and your lack of DMing me that you're basically unwilling to actually put anything behind your argument here? Anyway, good talk. Keep hedging your bets on this "I won't be surprised if Lafreniere plays center in the NHL one day". I'm sure that wishful thinking will totally pan out for you.

EVERYONE with a job in professional hockey knows more about the sport than I do. And yet, professional hockey people do stupid s*** ALL THE TIME. Examples abound. Peter Chiarelli traded Taylor Hall for Adam Larsson. Ken Holland signed Justin Abdelkader to a 7 year, 4.2 million dollar contract. BOTH of them know more about hockey than I do, both did dumb s***. The fact that Wayne Gretzky knows more about hockey than I do too does not preclude him from being wrong. I'm not a religious person. At all. I could never understand why you'd listen to some other person tell you how to live your life. But at least religious weirdos can scare you into blindly following them with the high stakes of the subject. I REALLY don't understand slavishly following what someone else says, in the face of overwhelmingly obvious logic, when it comes to hockey. It literally doesn't matter at all. Branch out. Think for yourself. You'll be amazed how often you don't agree with Wayne Gretzky. Lol.

Why would you say Rasmussen isn't a fit but Zadina or Veleno is?

If I'm misrepresenting your point, then please elaborate what exactly you're trying to say. Because it sure seems like you're suggesting Wayne Gretzky can't have a stupid opinion because HE'S WAYNE FREAKIN' GRETZKY, BRO!

I will categorically rule out a switch. I'm also 100% willing to bet on it, since I don't believe in talking s*** without backing it up. Reach out to me in messages for the terms of said bet.

Wait, Wayne Gretzky had his number retired league wide? I didn't know that. It only follows then that the Red Wings should draft Lafreniere in hopes of him becoming a top center after never having played that position his life. I stand corrected. Clearly if you're really good as a hockey player you're probably just as good when evaluating talent, and if you're a bad player you're likely also bad as a talent evaluator. Which is why guys like Gretzky and Patrick Roy have lit the coaching world on fire, and why bums like Scotty Bowman, and Al Arbour, and Joel Quenneville have fallen flat. If only the latter group had been better players they'd clearly know that the recipe for winning a Stanley Cup is to take really good players and NOT play them at their natural positions. Good thinking.

Holy strawman!

Lol. Off the top of my head here's a list of elite wingers who haven't played center in the NHL, and are therefore "not on Lafreniere's level" according to your logic: Kucherov, Ovechkin, Panarin, Forsberg, Gaudreau, Hall, Marchand, Laine, Pastrnak, Tarasenko, Wheeler, and Marner. I realize that over the years a select number of players have successfully changed positions at the NHL level. I'm not arguing that it has never been done. I'm arguing that it won't be done in Lafreniere's case. And that it's stupid. If you need a center draft a center. If you want Lafreniere, draft him. But if you need a center and draft Lafreniere expecting to switch him, you're a dips***...despite what Wayne Gretzky thinks. Also, who (aside from you) is comparing Lafreniere to McDavid? Also, also, Gretzky's opinion isn't irrelevant, it's just not the gospel of hockey either. His one and only attempt at player development/deployment was a nightmare. So trying to use some soundbite from him as a cudgel, in this instance, is a bit misguided.

You should definitely double, hell even triple, down on the "Cuz Wayne Gretzky said so" argument. It's working really well for you so far. I don't know if he could or not. I DO know that historically most elite level wingers don't. There's probably a reason for that. Maybe we should ask Wayne Gretzky since he's a hockey oracle now.

This is an example of the Grade A thinking that made Wayne Gretzky a spectacular coach with the Coyotes after his playing days were over.

If Babs was available in the 2020 offseason that would mean that he, yet again, failed to makes waves in the playoffs despite having a STACKED team. This would be about the millionth time that has happened. And one would probably then have to conclude that he's actually not that good of a coach after all. Right?

Agreed, at this point or long term success is more likely to hinge on whether Veleno, Rasmussen, Zadina, Cholowski, Lindstrom/McIsaac, Sieder, and Larsson can viably fill all the holes in the lineup rather than whether we get another lottery pick. At this point our forwards outside Mantha, Bert, Larkin, and AA are HORRIBLE. We essentially need five middle six forwards, about 3 of which need to be impact players. We need 3 top four defensemen. A couple of goalies. Adding a Lafreniere would be nice, all things being equal, but I'd MUCH rather see a few of the guys mentioned above (or others) step up and fill those roles at a competitive level than see a bunch of them underwhelm but add a top end pick.