kipwinger

I'm genuinely not trying to harp on this too much, so bear with me. But "generally unimpressive" compared to what? Because I realize their raw numbers won't be comparable to guys in North American leagues, but are they unimpressive compared to other draft eligible players in the same European leagues over the years?

I definitely understand your argument. And again, I don't know enough about Allsvenskan to double down on this too much. I guess my assumption is that IF it's a similar league to the ECHL, then top of the draft talent should be able to produce reasonably well. And Broberg's numbers seem pretty pedestrian by that league's standards, even among draft eligible players. Like I said elsewhere, he's producing at about the same rate in that league that Gustav Lindstrom did as a draft eligible player. I suppose maybe it's that production COMBINED with the potential that his physical tools gives him. Which would be in line with some of the scouting reports on him I've seen. But I just don't see high level offensive upside with the guy given how little he's produced relative to his peers, both in Allsvenskan as well as in age restricted best on best tourneys. As far as the Russian example you gave, I'd expect Russian players to struggle more than Swedish players in their respective leagues. Given that there are about 140 million more people in Russia I'd expect there to be more good players at every level of hockey. Maybe the top guys in each league are comparable, but the rank and file guys should (theoretically) all be better in Russia. As a result, it should always be a little harder to make the team, get minutes, produce offense, etc. in Russia.

Let's set aside the fact that you wished that twenty year old girl (whom you never even met) flunks out of med school, and/or that two people who seem to really care about each other ultimately break up. We'll just ignore what a miserably cynical point of view that actually is. What I'm REALLY wondering is what you do for a living that puts you in a position to give career advice to the 25 year old millionaire and his soon-to-be doctor girlfriend? I bet you're a stock broker right? Own your own wealth management firm? Independently wealthy entrepreneur? Bingo.

I know, right? Some girl failing to realize her dream of helping people, despite the sincere help and effort from her loved ones, would be f*cking hilarious!

Just seeing this so my apologies for the delay. This is an interesting point, but it's misleading. The SHL isn't the NHL, and Allsvenskan isn't comparable to the AHL as a result. Over the years I've read (as much a possible) about the quality of the various hockey leagues around the world. In most cases where people discuss the relative strength of each league they place the SHL slightly below the AHL. So if we take the SEL and AHL to be roughly equal, then Allsvenskan would be comparable to the ECHL. So while your point still stands that Broberg WAS playing in a men's league, it's not as though it's a very good men's league. And his failure to produce many points against that level of competition is still a concern for me if I were contemplating taking him near the top of the draft. Also, saying that Allsvenskan is like the "worst half" of the AHL is misleading for another reason. The difference in the size and quality of the talent pools between the SHL and the AHL. The AHL is pulling talent from all around on the world, both in terms of prospects on their way up, and NHLers on their way down. The worst teams in the AHL are still NHL affiliates and are still likely to have MUCH more talent being infused into their rosters. Guys who dominate the SHL are generally guys who never made it in North American hockey or are Swedish NHL prospects with a year or two less development then they'll have when they eventually play in the AHL. As a result the "worst half" of the AHL is probably WAY better than Allsvenskan IMO.

While I'm generally fine with the return we got on Nyquist I can't help but marvel at how dumb the conditions were. First, who bets on the Sharks' playoff success? Lol. Terrible. Second, in order to re-sign him they'd basically have to swing and miss on one or both of Pavelski and Karlsson, their top two priorities. Not to mention, as I've stated elsewhere, in order to get a better pick next year we had to get a worse pick this year. Dumb.

I agree that he'd go unclaimed. My point is THAT WOULD BE A BAD THING because you'd having a significant amout of cap space wasted. As long as he's better than at least one other player you're better off riding out his contract with him playing limited minutes and spending significant time in the press box as he continues to age. I swear I'd love to see how half the members of LGW would fare as GMs in the NHL. You'd have 20 rookies on the team and about 30 million in dead cap money.

If the Wings waived him and he went unclaimed they'd eat 3 million dollars per year until 2023. Again, f*cking retarded. And of course the first time during that period that they couldn't sign some UFA that you wanted you'd ***** endlessly about how badly they'd mismanaged the cap.

I agree, and think he should. I also think it won't be a bad thing that he does.

One thing I'm interested in is whether Yzerman will start locking these guys up as RFA's or go the bridge deal route like Holland. I really don't think you want to do "prove it" deals with each of these guys and then find you've got to pay them all a bunch of else risk losing them to UFA. I think I'd go the Dave Poile route and overpay a bit early and hopefully get value on the back end like he did with Josi, Ekholm, and Arvidsson.

No, that isn't what "led us to the cellar". He had Helm, Glendening, Abby, Nielsen, Ehn, and De la Rose all in the lineup, some playing third line minutes or higher. We had one of the worse defensive groups in the league. We had no center depth. AND we were among the most injured teams in the league. Suggesting that keeping Abby and Helm around to be 4th liners is more of "the same" is retarded.

To be honest I don't really care who we take at 35. I just want one of Zegras or Dach at 6th and I'm happy. Larkin, Zegras/Dach, Veleno, and Glendening down the middle with some combination of Bert, Mantha, AA, Zadina, Svech, Rasmussen, Hirose, and Berggren on the wings is a nasty forward group going forward.

While I think it's pretty unlikely, I do think there's room for Veleno to make the team if it's clear he's ready from camp. However, two things would have to happen and neither are likely. At center, any of AA, Glendening, or Nielsen would be moved to the wing . Larkin, AA/Nielsen/Glendening, Veleno isn't out of the realm of possibility. Or he could do like Larkin and break in on the wing, but that's even more unlikely given that he'd have to leap frog Zadina, Svech, and Rasmussen to do it. I think odds are that he'll play a full year in GR and breaks in at center a year from now.

I genuinely don't understand why everybody is so quick to get rid of Abby. I get that his production has curtailed the last few seasons but his ice time has fallen by about 3 minutes per game since his career highs in 2015 and 2016. And that reduction is ice is EXACTLY what everybody wanted in the first place. Now the big complaint is that he doens't score. The reasoning is pretty circular. Then people freak out about his contract, which has not affected the team negatively in any conceivable way. So I can't understand that one either. Then they say he's eating up a roster spot, but when guys like Ehn, De La Rose, Witkowski, and Frk are on the team it's pretty hard to argue that roster spots are at a premium. I say let his contract run out. And in the mean time let him be a good locker room guy. Let him teach the kids how to work out like a pro, eat like a pro, practice like a pro, be responsible on roadtrips, hold them accountable on the ice, and all that. And all the while keep reducing his role as other guys peak until he's a regular scratch. That would cost the team nothing and might actually benefit the organization in the long term.

Bob McKenzie's final draft rankings for anybody who's interested: https://www.tsn.ca/americans-set-to-dominate-first-round-of-the-nhl-draft-1.1323878 Edit: Bob's got Brayden Tracey at 36, which is pretty interesting. Kid had a really solid year in the WHL and put up some nice numbers. Definitely a name I hadn't heard up to this point.

I actually don't agree with this. The knock on Helm and Abby and Neilsen is their price, not their ability. ALL of them have shown they're better players than De La Rose (for instance). And since we're in no cap trouble at all I don't see why you'd move on from guys who are obviously better than the younger guys. Again, maybe if you were up against the cap and need to re-sign someone, but we aren't. I'd much rather have Helm or Abby in the lineup than Ehn or De La Rose. I just don't want them playing anything more than fourth line minutes. Barring any trades for free agent signings my fourth line next year would be Helm-Glendening-Abby. Neilsen would center the third line (until injured or Veleno shows he's ready for a call up in GR) and one of Ehn or De La Rose would be in the press box.

Ok, then from your point of view he'd be one of the four you keep in lineup. De La Rose goes, and one of Ehn, Helm, Abby, or Glendening sits. You just can't having five roster spots going to guys who can't score. And definitely not five roster spots across multiple lines. There's a reason our offense is trash. Aside from the powerplay a big part of it is that each line is basically saddled with one or two guys who have essentially zero offensive ability.

I basically agree with this. We essentially had two fourth lines last year when you consider many nights we dressed Glendening, Helm, Abby, Ehn, and De La Rose. None of those guys are really good enough to play regularly above a fourth line (maybe Helm or Glendening in a pinch). We definitely don't want to repeat that lineup if we're looking to win here. IMO you pick the four best of those guys (or the four you can't trade maybe) and make three of the your 4th line, and one of them your extra forward. In no way should any more than three of those guys be in the lineup on a nightly basis.

In a vacuum, yes. He's a really solid player. But I think we're in really good shape on the wings between Bert, Mantha, Zadina, AA, Hirose, Svech, and Rasmussen.

Here goes: 1: I'm not saying "Boqvist isn't better than a 2nd rounder". He's better than lots of 2nd rounder probably. I'm saying that based on his offensive track record prior to the draft he should probably have been drafted somewhere closer to McIsaac than Hughes or Bouchard, and that Chicago didn't get proper value for their pick because they took him too early. I'm also saying that is very likely what will happen if someone drafts Broberg too early given that he has historically produced about a much offense as Gustav Lindstrom, a guy who nobody expects to provide offense in the NHL. In a regular year Broberg likely goes toward the later half of the first round or beginning of the 2nd. But it's a weak draft class for defensemen so he's a hot commodity despite his lack of actual accomplishments. 2: If one needs scouting experience to talk about the NHL draft on a Red Wings message board then LGW wouldn't exist. We're all playing fantasy hockey of sorts, and some of us are trying to do so logically. Falling back on "well you're not a pro scout and neither am I" is lazy, but also defeats the purpose of joining the board in the first place. 3: That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that every year people say "it's a toss up between picks 3 and 12, or 4 and 10, or 5 and 11" or whatever. And if you look back at past drafts, or do a redraft you realize that isn't true. There's pretty much always separation between the players everyone thinks are in the same tier. A year ago everyone said Hughes, Bouchard, Boqvist, and Dobson were all a "toss up". Looks like a bad take to me. So I disagree with you when you say that after the first two picks it's all up in the air (paraphrasing your argument). There's going to be MASSIVE separation between the 6th best player in this draft and the 12th. It behooves the Red Wings to figure out who's better than who, and a good place to start narrowing down their options is to look at who has historically dominated their respective leagues and who hasn't. Hint: Broberg hasn't. 4: I don't. I just said that those scouting reports (which may be wrong) tend to compare Broberg to guys who have tended to put up pedestrian offensive numbers in the NHL. Maybe it's just a stylistic comparison and he'll be better than Klefbom, Stralman, or whomever. But it's a risky bet to assume a guy who doesn't score well in a 2nd tier Swedish league is going to start scoring more in the AHL or NHL. 5: 38 points is pretty mediocre for an "offensive" NHL defenseman. For reference, Matt Niskanen scored 39 points as a 30 yo in 2017. It wasn't even his best season. So again, if you wanna classify Klefbom as an offensive defenseman that's fine, he's a pretty average one. Unless you're impressed by guys whose best years are roughly equal to a 32 yo journeyman defender's 2nd best season. Not the kind of upside you want to see if you're taking Broberg with a top ten pick. 6: Edmonton's defense is a nighmare. Being their best "offensive" defenseman is like being the best Special Olympic Hurdler. Being a better point man on the powerplay than Darnell Nurse or Adam Larsson is hardly a feather in your cap. Who the hell else was going to do it? Even with all those sweat powerplay minutes (minutes he wouldn't get on a decent team) he still couldn't crack 40 points. But he's "offensive"? 7: Already been discussed. 8: I've never denied Broberg's physical tools. Just don't think those alone are worth a top ten pick and that any team who does so will be taking a significant risk considering it's easier for a kid to grow, or improve their skating, after he's drafted than to suddenly develop skills he's never had. Again, all of those things applied to McIsaac and I certainly think he would have been a reach in the top ten. 9: Already discussed.

This one?

Do you think that NBA or NFL guys are just as happy when they win championships as NHL guys are, or do you think their elation is slightly diminished by the fact that their trophy looks childish? Like, this could just as easily be a picture of Jeremy Lin after winning a Gus Macker 3 on 3 with his mom and kid brother and nobody would really know the difference.

Aren't you the guy who responded "nerd" to my well constructed post a page or so ago. Didn't realize I owed you anything Your Highness.

No, I didn't read it. I can't be bothered to go back that many pages. You crib noted it for me when you said "Lol did you just read my post comparing him to Helm a few posts back where I talked about his IQ and not knowing what to do with the puck? Thanks for parroting it back to me." Seems like a pretty straight forward, and damning, summary of your comparison and Broberg's "offensive" talent. Though, I'll allow for the fact that maybe I'm taking you out of context and that when you compared Broberg's puck skills and IQ to Helm's it was actually a compliment.

Don't draft an "offensive" defensemen whose offensive skills you've compared to Darren Helm in the top of the first round is a sinking ship argument? Ok. Guilty.