kipwinger

Let's say we finish out the season dramatically outperforming expectations. Say we just miss a playoff spot, but Larkin clearly establishes himself as a top line center, AA and Mantha are legit 20+ goal scorers, Cholo shows 1st pair skill, and Rasmussen looks solid. And we know we've got Zadina, Veleno, Hronek, Saarijarvi, Berggren, McIsaac, and our first rounders from this year's draft coming. Do you make a strong push for Quenneville then?

Mantha's been on fire since that demotion. Gotta give it to Blashill on that one.

Wait, so you're in favor of teams using every ounce of leverage they have to maintain financial dominance over players?

I was reading an article by Max Bultman of The Athletic about how Detroit can accelerate it's rebuild. Most of it was boiler plate "get lucky at the draft" or "hope player X turns about better than anticipated" kind of stuff. But two of his premises were pretty fun to think about. A) Trade for undervalued players, or B) Hockey Trades. He mentioned Honka or Pujujarvi as examples of the first category, and Trouba and Faulk as examples of the second. So, I challenge LGW to think of examples of either or both that haven't already been mentioned. Outside the box type s***. And then propose a realistic trade package. I'll start... To Detroit: Josh Ho Sang To NYI: Evgeny Svechnikov

Blashill is a lame duck. Everybody knows. This is just a stealth tank job. Nothing more. Blash gets relieved at year's end. Sooner if we start getting embarrassed each night.

I was trying to set a snare for the LGW members who spent all that time talking trash about how either Quenneville, or the Hawks, weren't really all that good. Because one or the other needs to be true. You foiled it. Thanks man.

I'd go with Mantha, Frk, Nyq, Larkin, Green on unit one, and Ras, Vanek, Bert, AA, and Cholo on unit two when all are healthy.

I'd argue that Mantha should lead the team in shots on goal every game, or nearly every game, for him to be doing "his thing" properly. He's not a play maker. He's supposed to be a goal scorer. He has a decent shooting percentage, but he needs to increase his shot volume if he wants to produce more. I really don't care how many assists he has, that's not really his job.

At some point we've got to conclude that A) there's something wrong with Mantha, or B) he's just not as good as people thought he might be. There's a few things that could explain his lack of production though. First, he's no longer got Zetterberg feeding him prime scoring opportunities. Second, he's no longer playing down low and at the net front on the PP. You can't really blame the system, as it's the same for every player in it. You also can't really blame opportunity, he's getting plenty of prime minutes. If I'm Blashill I get him back in front of the net on the PP pronto. He needs to get some goals under his belt. Plus, this whole "Mantha is a sniper" pipe dream is clearly not panning out. If he wants to score at the NHL level he needs to be forced to change his game. It worked last year, this year he's playing like a princess.

I'd go... Nyq-Lark-Ras Vanek-Neilsen-AA Frk-De La Rose-Mantha Bert-Glen-Abby

I'd be especially interested in Quenneville because of the type of team he won with. For years people have been saying you need to have "elite" talent at #1 defensemen and #1 center. But the general consensus around here seems to be that Toews is a top line center, but not one of the top 5(ish) in the league during his peak years. Same goes for Keith. Hossa and Sharp were good supplemental pieces, but not go-to guys at that point. Kane was really his only "elite" talent according to most. Sounds a lot like Larkin, Mantha, AA, Zadina, Cholo, Veleno, et. al. Add an "elite" piece in this year's draft and our makeup isn't that far off from what Quenneville was winning with.

You'd be crazy not to call now and inquire about Quenneville. He's a world class coach and those don't come around too often. That said, if he agreed in principle to coaching the Wings, you still let Blashill finish out the season and get the lottery pick. I'd love to have him, especially as we start turning the corner on this rebuild.

Well there's two ways of thinking about it. Hitting on your lottery pick is necessary for a rebuild, every rebuild pretty much has to start with that. So that's standard. When I say "accelerate" I mean, what can be done in addition to that. If you get incrementally better across the board AND you hit on your lottery picks then your rebuild should, in theory, move along more quickly. It's those moves that can be made on the margins that can speed things up. Now, Ho Sang. Kid's a dingus? Maybe. But there's a lot of very legit concerns about how he's been handled. He's been a productive player at the NHL level and he was buried on his AHL team's 3rd line? C'mon? Since he spoke up about it he was put on his AHL team's top line and has like 8 points in 3 games or something? So it's not like the kid can't play. And it's not like the Islanders haven't been absurdly mismanaged forever. And it's not like black hockey players get accused of being selfish or having an attitude ALL THE TIME. And its not like Lou Lamorello isn't an epically authoritarian f***-head who has buried guys before just to show that he's the boss. Point is, maybe he's an dingus and maybe he isn't. But he can play, and his value is at an all time low. Why not take a flier on him?

I don't think you're wrong here, but I also think that's something you can't do too often either. Like, if you look at last year's draft the Islanders did something like that, and admittedly had an amazing draft and laid a firm foundation for their rebuild with Dobson and Wahlstrom. But I don't think they ended up with anything better than what we got by standing pat and drafting 4 times in the top two rounds. I mean, we got McIsaac who was projected as a first rounder for the entire year before the draft. I guess what I'm saying is that it's a draft by draft thing. In years which are loaded with talent, like the 2019 draft is supposed to be, I think I'd hang on to my picks because the difference between the 15th and 35th players drafted might be pretty small. However, since the premise of the thread is ways to accelerate the rebuild I'd add that if there's someone in the top 10 or 15 that you think people are sleeping on, or that you think is definitely going to play above their draft position, then you should definitely do it. I'm just wary of moving 2nd rounders because you can still get a lot of talent in round 2.

Larkin is on some next level s*** right now. They need to give AA some of whatever Larkin's been eating.

Jared McIsaac up to 4 goals, 5 assists, in 9 games.

Add Casey Mittelstadt and Rasmus Dahlin to any team and they're bound to be better than they were. That said, Buffalo probably shouldn't have been a juggernaut under Bylsma, but they should have been better. A team with Eichel, O'Reilly, Reinhart, Okposo, Kane, Ennis, Ristolainen, etc. should probably not have been so far in the cellar.

Vanek was demoted too, likely for the same reason. So it's not like Mantha is being singled out. And really, if you were going to single someone out, it should be Mantha. He's supposed to be the best, or second best, player on the team and he's got one goal this year and is getting caved in at even strength. He's lucky he doesn't get scratched. He's been on the ice for nearly as many even strength goals against our entire team has scored all season. So he's hardly using all of that skill to stay out of the defensive zone as you've suggested. Truth is, any or all of Vanek, Mantha, Nyquist, or Neilsen could reasonably be demoted. But Neilsen is a center and Nyquist is currently outplaying Mantha and Vanek so there you go.

I'm not going to say whether I want Blashill gone or not. I'm torn. On the one hand, lose for Hughes ya know? On the other, I'm not positive his system is best for the growth of our young players. I'm no systems expert, so take this with a grain of salt, but it doesn't seem like his system utilizes our team's best asset...speed. Seems like we get circles skated around us each night. That would make sense if this were the 2013 Red Wings and we were loaded down with old vets. But in theory we should be one of the league's fastest hockey clubs and we aren't. Gotta think that's a deliberate choice. And if so, how is that going to help out these young guys who are certainly going to have to play an uptempo game for their next coach given how the league is trending.

That's a dubious argument because it assumes that Abby or Kronwall are as bad at doing their jobs as Mantha is at his right now. It's problematic because their jobs are different. If Mantha is, as you've said many times, a finisher then he's failing abysmally at it. Neither Abby or Kronwall are counted on for offense. Abby is a penalty killer, forechecker, and physical presence. Kronwall is a past his prime veteran two way guy who is no longer capable, or expected, to skate well or contribute offensively. It would be a hard sell to say that Abby is as bad at forechecking and penalty killing as Mantha has been at scoring. Same for Kronwall. Sure there are worse players on the team, but they're doing their jobs better than Mantha is at the moment.

Jared McIsaac has 7 points in 7 games including 3 goals. So that's a kinda positive development for a 2nd rounder.

His skating and stamina seemed fine last year when he led the team in goals. I think probably something else is going on. Something like 9 of his goals last year came on the PP, where he was playing net front. He's not doing that this year. Wouldn't explain why he's been terrible at even strength, but could explain his lack of PP production.

Yeah, but your track record assessing defensemen is abysmal lol. You're pretty good with forwards, but defensemen have been hard on you. Any good take requires that you explain your rationale. Just saying something isn't really good enough in Takesville. Take another crack at it.

I'd love it if I were the prospect projection take guy, but sadly I'm regularly wrong about them. For instance, I thought AA had Seguin upside and a floor of Ryan Kesler. I was way, way, wrong on that one. I was right about Frk. And I said one of Pulkkinen or Jurco would be good, and one would be bad. So I was 50% wrong on that one.

Man, my "Cholowski has Duncan Keith Upside" take is looking better by the day.